Chatting to Baz Moffat

Warning: some subjects may be a little adult for very young listeners. It’s all important information but adults should decide how much they want to explain to their kids depending on their age.

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This is a podcast for everyone! If you are a woman in sport, a man or a woman who trains women and girls and/or if you have daughters, you should listen to this. It’s mind blowing and life changing, I promise you.

Baz Moffat began rowing at the age of 21 to meet new friends. Four years later she was sitting on the start line of the GB trials. She later made the Women’s 8 and won a medal at the 2007 World Championships.

Her greatest weapon in sport was probably her mind-over-matter approach, a performance mentality which got her into the boat, onto the team and up on the podium. It pushed her body to do things nobody believed it could or should. She, by her own admission, naively assumed this mentality was an asset that would help her in life.

When she retired from pro sport she was handed a fairly brutal reality check.  In ‘normal’ life, she still believed her best tool was the ‘eyes-on-the-prize’, and ‘just-push-through’ approach. But you can’t master life like that and her body began to rebel.

She had a sudden realisation that it wasn’t all about body; she needed to broaden her mind too. She found she had to harmonise mind and body, instead of seeing one as master of the other.

As she began to see life through a new lens, the outputs were so significant she began to introduce new thinking and techniques into her coaching work.

In this conversation, we discuss her sporting background, her time in the GB Rowing Squad, her brutal first labour and birth, followed by therapy and her empowered life changing second birth.

Then we talk about journey into being a pelvic floor specialist that led her to her newest iteration as co-founder of The Well HQ with Dr Emma Ross and Dr Bella Smith and their absolute mission in life to change the way that women stay healthy, get involved and stay in sport and how everyone involved in a woman’s sporting life – from herself to her dad to her coach and the schools and clubs she belongs to – can make it the glorious, empowering journey it’s supposed to be.

We talk about sports bras, periods, menopause, science, sporting environments and SO MUCH MORE!!

The Well HQ founders are writing a book called “Train Like a Woman” and while it has no release date yet, you can sign up on their website for updates as to when that is likely to happen.

https://www.thewell-hq.com/ They run regular webinars, some free, some paid. They have courses for both interested women and for coaches and trainers.

Don’t forget to listen in to the end for this week’s #challengecatie (which is actually a life long challenge – can you guess what it is?)

Instagram        @thewell_hq

Twitter            @thewellhq

Facebook        https://www.facebook.com/thewellhqonline

LinkedIn          @thewellhq

Baz’s accounts:

http://www.bazmoffat.com/

Instagram        @bazmoffatstrongtothecore

Twitter            @bazmoffat

Facebook        @BazMoffatStrongtotheCore 

LinkedIn          http://linkedin.com/in/baz-moffat-55b61a11

 

Transcript

Please note that transcripts are automatically generated by artificial intelligence so may not be 100% accurate.

SPEAKERS

Baz Moffat, Catie Friend

 

Catie Friend  00:02

Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries and how they keep healthy, happy. unsane. Boss Moffitt is a former Great Britain roar a bronze medalist in the 2007 world championships, a mother of two former personal trainer and a specialist in pelvic floor health, as well as that she's recently teamed up with Dr. Emma Ross and Dr. Bella Smith to create the well, HQ. And in this conversation, we talk about everything that is women specific training, and you might have an idea of what you think this conversation is going to sound like. But a lot of it was absolutely not the conversation I thought I was going to have with her. It's brilliant. So interesting. So fun. We talk about everything from sport at school, to birth stories, to pelvic floor via menopause, sports bras periods, how the men in our lives can support women, as much as women can support themselves. It's just so so vital. If you are a woman who trains or does sport, if you are a man, or a woman who trains or coaches, girls or women, or if you have daughters, this is a must listen, I cannot overstate how important the work is that these three women are doing as being one of them. And I just love this conversation. So so much. I hope you enjoy. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. How are you? I'm really well thank you. Awesome. No, I am always excited to speak to my guests genuine, actual excitement. But today I'm particularly excited because I have been caught up in everything that you've been doing with the well HQ with Dr. Emma Ross and Dr. Bella Smith. And we're gonna come on to that because it's just, it's completely blown my mind as I'm sure it has for a lot of people, which as we'll also come on to it shouldn't have been.

 

Baz Moffat  02:24

What I want to just do a little bit of background on you because you are, amongst other things, a former GB rowing squad for our medal winner World Champion medal winner. Yeah, it feels like a very long time ago now I even when I was growing on the telly, I'm like how did I do that? But yes, back in the day, I was one of those rare lists and that you always had a quite a sporty childhood I think us I've read that you were sort of A for effort type was kind of always battling through. I tried so hard as for I absolutely loved it. I didn't come from a sporty family at all. But for me, sport was my leveller like I really, as a child, I didn't really feel like I fit it in anywhere. Do you know I kind of like fell out but definitely wasn't in the call group at school. But I felt that sport was the place where I could really just truly be me. And so I absolutely adored it. And from a really young age, you know, I was obsessed with the Commonwealth Games and the you know, and the Olympics and college active Sarika node and lympha Christi, that kind of era and they were just all so inspirational. I've always had this dream of being an international athlete, how did you go from sort of, you know, you by your own admission, not being, you know, one of the best of the fastest, really like putting yourself to because, you know, I'm not a rower, but my dad stroke the Cambridge blue boat back in the day. So I know from just from the stories that that's a brutally hard sport, like, I mean, all sport is hard. But that's a it was not it was not predictable that that's, you know, like, I think that if you were doing any talent ID programme, I don't think I'd have qualified for any of them whatsoever. And it was more I didn't start, I'd love sport, as I said, my entire life. So I've done everything, you know, every single school team, I just was always doing sport. And then I decided that that that international ship had sailed as it were, and you know, when you're 21, and you think, Oh my god, I'm so old now I really need to get used to get serious now but as and you need to, you know, sort of decide what you're going to do. So I then went down the corporate route and you know, sort of doing graduate jobs. And I just hated them. I was so disillusioned by them and I couldn't quite believe that this was what life would be. It was like is this honestly like what I've been working so you working hard at school for when and how the university for is I cannot see this being my life. So it wasn't as though I I decided, Okay, I want to be an international athlete. Now. It was more like, you know, I just I just went back into sport and I chose rowing because it wasn't going to be rowing on that board. It was kind of I want the rowing got it because it was outside it would that was literally it was like, I just wanted to be part of a team. And like, I want to learn something new, I want to do something totally different. And I just kind of just loved it and hate it. And I'd love growing more and hated work more, it just became more apparent that maybe I could give it a go. And I just thought, you know what, I've got absolutely nothing to lose. If I take what I decided to do was take a gap year what I consider a gap year, kind of at the age of 24. And I went over to Australia, and I trade with an amazing squad over there. And I just decided, right, I'm gonna throw everything into this. And if it's a total disaster, no one knows. Because I'm under the radar. No one in the UK knows I'm doing this or like, this is the plan. So I can go over there, I can mess up, I can fail, I can have a completely disastrous experience. But also, there's a real freedom to that, you know, I can just see how good can I be. And I kind of the Australian system was so incredible. I've got amazing opportunities that have been I, when I came back to trial in the UK, I was better than I thought I was. And it just kind of was a no brainer to really go for the squad.

 

Catie Friend  06:11

Because it's quite incredible that you say, you know, you had, you said what 21 I thought my life was over. But that's quite late to take up a sport especially like rowing because there's a lot of technique that people learn super early on, it's a bit like skiing, if you learn early, you've got the kind of innate

 

Baz Moffat  06:27

i wasn't technically very good people with a lot better technique. I was a rough diamonds when it hit the technical side. But I had absolute determination. And I and I made sure that like the areas where I could be better. I nailed all the peripheral stuff, you know, like I was like, obsessed with nutrition obsessed with recovery. Obsessed with psychology, I got so into the psychology of team and like how to get the best out of myself. But how I realised quite quickly that if I'm in a boat, I have to make sure that everyone in that boat is like on form. So I have to work out like how to get the best out of that team. Because otherwise I am not going to be a good member too. I kind of thought I I was technically good enough, I was physiologically good enough, but like on the edge of both of those things, not like outstanding at all, like good, but not amazing. So I've just had to make the most of everything else. Yeah, because you came you came to us with a degree a first class degree, I hasten to add in sports science. Also, with that background of always playing sport your whole life. You know, so there, I'm super interested to hear that all that stuff that people consider, as you say peripheral stuff had made such a huge impact or addition to what you were attempting to do. Because I just knew that I was, you know, like you said, there were girls who've done it at school, the big girls that were doing it for years. And their technique was amazing. It was just it was just their muscle memory was outstanding. And the first thing of coach said to me was like hold your knees, which is a classic, you know, rowing term, I just coded these. And it was the last thing they said to me when I retired, it was something that I knew that technically, regardless of the fact that I was working, working working at it, there were other areas which I could really exploit. And those are just, you know, you go to the areas where you know, you think you can make the biggest difference. So from there, you went on to win a medal at the World Championships. And then what kind of went on because there's a sort of a phase after that, where you, you know, you said that you, your mind over matter. You're sort of battering through working as hard as you could using all the sort of peripheral things. And then you said life changed a little bit when you had your kids and that didn't work anymore. Yeah. So I retired from sport in 2008. And I actually didn't get selected for Olympics. So the year before was 2007. And I was on the podium with the aid and we qualified the boat, but in rowing, you qualified boat, but you don't qualify the people.The boat was off to Beijing, and it was just it wasn't quite sure who was going to be in that boat. And unfortunately, I'd always be on the edge of the squad. I'd always been that late last week, more or less. And then in and in 2007 every single decision went my way by an absolute margin. And in 2008, every decision went against me by exactly the same margin and I was just pushing against the tide and it just was never going to work. So I didn't get selected. And I retired and then I kind of was 30 so I knew I had to find a partner if I'd haveto get my life back to where I want it to be. So I and then I got married and and got pregnant and and I just and I approached pregnancy because physically my body had never let me down so physically, whatever I asked my body to do it Not instantly, but if I applied myself then I could do pretty much anything. So after I retired from sport, I did some ultra marathons, I did some ridiculous swims, I, and I just kind of did it, you know, if I had to trade, but I did it and I just I just thought pregnancy is going to be the same. I just thought, well, I got pregnant quite easily. My pregnancy was fine. birth, women give birth all over the world. I am physically better than them. Honestly, I was so arrogant with what I'm physically better people tell me it's like a 2k rowing test, which is kind of a fitness test to do in between. So I'll just keep on pushing, because that's the approach that has worked for me. And, and it was just an absolute disaster. Like it was an absolute disaster. And, and it really, really, that birth experience had like, really long lasting impression on me. And I just couldn't believe how how hard it was and how the tools that I had relied on in the past just didn't just didn't work for me. And because I was alive, and my baby was alive. And I didn't have postnatal depression. No one cared like everyone was. And also, I didn't care. Like I didn't even mention it. I just knew that I felt awful. But I was like, well, no one seems bothered. So maybe this is just what life is like as a new mum. And then I got pregnant again really quickly. And then sort of five months. And I was I was petrified. I was genuinely petrified of having the how this baby was going to come out of me. And I remember talking to my midwife and saying, I just left Can you just tell me that I need to have a C section and that someone will just almost put me to sleep and then wake up and they'll be a baby. I just cannot there's nowhere and go through like what I've recently gone through. And she she was amazing. And she sat down with me. And she said, You need she was a rower actually, which really helped. So I knew she understood me. And that was, you know what my mentality was? She said, Look, let's, let's look at what happened with your body. And she said, but this is what happened. And this is why you reacted that way. I honestly think you'll be you're brilliant at giving birth. I'm like, how can you say that? How can you say it was the worst experience ever. And she said no. Like you, what you don't understand is that you have to give your body the environment in which it can truly perform and you didn't give it that environment. And she said that birth is not an emergency situation is not a situation, which needs to be adrenalized. Like you can't be pushing and pushing and pushing, especially if it's taken two days to get these babies baby out. And so it just made me stop and realise that actually, the hormones in our bodies are the best painkiller. And if you work with them, as opposed to against them, and working with them means tapping into your female energy is a hard thing to do when you're used to having quite a male approach to your energy and a male approach performance. And I kind of went with it. And I did it. And honestly, it was extraordinary. It was absolutely amazing. My second baby, like literally whoosh out of my body. And it was the most amazing physical thing I had ever done. And it was the moment that he came out. I was like, Oh my god, I get it, I get what what this flow state is I get what it is to truly connect to every single thing in your body and produce something amazing. And I just wish I'd had the confidence to do that. As an athlete, I just wish I'd had the confidence to kind of not just try to fit into a system but try and really tap into me, which I haven't really done to its full potential.

 

Catie Friend  13:37

Oh my gosh, there's so much there. I love a birth story. And so just before I go, I want to go on to that sort of flow state and, and, and really delve into all that stuff about understanding yourself as a woman and everything. But what just to sort of clarify what was it that was so awful about the first one you say you're pushing and pushing, like physically actually pushing or talk to me a little bit about what you mean?

 

Baz Moffat  14:04

Yeah, so it was it was was one of those unfortunate situations where I like my my waters had broken, but I hadn't I wasn't in labour. So often, my waters are broken on like a Wednesday afternoon. And then as if roll, if you haven't had your baby within 24 hours, then they need to induce you. And I haven't had my baby within 24 hours, but then they were busy. And so I just kind of got abandoned on this life on this random ward in this hospital where my contractions started, which was like 36 hours after my water had broken. And, and because I was on my I was totally on my own. And I had never, I think Yeah, one of these. This is why we're so passionate about the work that we do now is that that was the first time I had ever been exposed to any kind of birth experience. Like I had never seen a friend do it. I've never talked to people about it. No one had ever told me about it. And I was up on this word.in such pain, and it was because my baby was like the wrong way round. But people just was people were walking past and it felt like they were laughing at me and they weren't laughing at me. They were just smiling. But in that moment, I thought, they're laughing at me. And they were like, oh, you're not having your baby here. You need to get down on delivery sweet, but we haven't got space for you. So it was, and I am having my baby, like right now. But then I'll know, other people said you can't have it here. So it was and when you're in labour is so intense that you can't you can't advocate for yourself in that moment you are you're fully consumed by what's happening to your body. And I was in such pain and the contract instead of normally, when you go to any birthing class, they say, you have a contraction, and then you have this level, and it all comes off and you have this lovely time to relax. I have no time. It was like, there's a contraction. And then there was intense pain, and it was an attraction and there was intense pain. And so it was just unrelenting. And then they came up said, Would you like some paracetamol and I literally was literally screamed, and I was like, I just felt that I was totally misunderstood. No one knew what I was experiencing. And then by the time that I did get down, it was like, Oh, my God, how is this woman got to this day, it was just panic stations. And, and, you know, I then yeah, I was really motivated to go and help women after that experience. And, and I was the NHS are brilliant at keeping you alive. And they are brilliant at life and death situations. And I felt that although if I had to get into that place until they wouldn't listen to me, and unfortunately,there wasn't the capacity to care for me in a non emergency way. And that was just really, really unfortunate, because it massively affected me and I had to have quite a lot of therapy, which I didn't have I delay having because I didn't even realise it was okay to have that to process that experience. Well, I so much of what you said rings true for me. I was already had it the opposite way around. I had a really amazing birth first time. And so swanned into the second birth going well, I'm a total badass at this, and had almost exactly the same experience as you. And and I ended up with a C section because it was all just like suddenly the surgeon appeared and was like, How the hell has this left to this stage? And I wasn't even in the UK, but I for that one. But no, I totally get it. And it is traumatic. But he said to me, after they said to me, they wanted this baby. My baby had arrived. They were like, oh, did you have pain relief? I said no. And like, that was physically not possible. What you have just done? I'm like, Well, I is because I've done it. But I'm bust that. Yeah, it was horrendous.

 

Catie Friend  17:45

I feel I feel I feel for you, because induced labour is something I would never want to wish on anyone without certainly without pain relief. Anyway. So and then. So then you got into you got therapy, and you had this amazing midwife. And you realised as you said that, really when you get into your female energy, and you which is how I felt in my first birth, I just I felt so empowered. And it wasn't it didn't turn out as exactly in terms of where I wanted to have the baby, but I totally get what you mean that just that feeling of this is what my body was meant to do.

 

Baz Moffat  18:23

Yeah. And that was that was I wanted a home. But by the sounds of things, you know, might have been a similar situation. I didn't end up having one. But I didn't get into hospital until the end. Like I literally my baby arrived within 20 minutes of me arriving.But they were and they didn't care likeI was conscious about this is embarrassing. I'm making noises I don't want anyone to hear I was conscious of all that. I literally arrived at Chelsea and Westminster hospital at Karpov seven. And, and I was like, I was doing all the noises. And I was with it. And they and they said, Oh, you can't have your baby here. And like, this is not my problem. If you don't want me to have my baby in reception, then you get around to everything was hanging out.At this baby's coming, like I'm going with it if you want to get me into a room, and then you do that, but I honestly don't care. And that was just because I was so in tune with what was happening and where my baby was. And the amazing thing with that second birth was I pushed and I could feel and I could feel this baby coming that second birth. I couldn't feel any apart from ridiculous amounts of pain. I couldn't feel anything. And that's why that's where the disconnect was.

 

Catie Friend  19:33

Yeah, no, is it absolutely I had a similar thing when, when my son was born, he was my first and suddenly I got to the pushing stage. And I said, you know, I'd never had a baby before. I said, I think this baby's coming. Because I'd started to do the noise. And they were like, um, can you can you wait? Can you wait till 930 and I said What time is it? Nine o'clock. Eh no! Thinking, Surely you're the professional here, you know that when a woman starts making that noise, she's having an actual baby like, right now. And they're like, well, this isn't the right room and I was.like I'm having this baby right now. Anyway, so yes, I totally, I'm with you on many of those elements. So what? After you'd had your babies and you'd been through this therapy, and you thankfully got this view of Exactly, yeah, how your body was supposed It was designed to work? And what what did that apart from hopefully healing some of the trauma of the first birth and having two beautiful, healthy babies? What? What did that change for you going forward professionally and so on?

 

Baz Moffat  20:54

It, it made me want to go deeper with women. And it may so I'd been when I retired from rowing, I went into personal training, and I kind of enjoyed it. I had a very successful personal training business. But there was something missing. And after that second birth experience, I was like, I, I get now what, how we need to help women and we need to go deeper. And we need to help them connect with that with who they truly are. And that's when I started to kind of really get into the pelvic floor and the pelvic health side of things, primarily because of my birth experience. But then, because the pelvis, even though men have a pelvic floor, the pelvic floor is is, you know, fundamentally, you know, it's more important for women, because they're not the Dinos, they have babies, and they go through menopause, which those which men don't, and that's why we were more likely to have more susceptible to have issues with our pelvic health. And I just thought, you know, I was reading about it and talking with friends, I was like, this is a barrier, this is a massive barrier to women being active. And it's a massive barrier for women to potentially succeeding in sport as well. And I just thought I can, we can, I can help them with their fitness, but starting from something that's really fundamental to being a woman, and so I started just being a pelvic floor coach, and I would take a woman, you know, ultimately, what I wanted to do really was help them with their pelvic floor, and then help integrate their pelvic floor into their training programme, wherever that might be, and then hand them over back then all personal trainers have after their normal classes, or their or their sports programme, and not really stick with them for ages, because I kind of like to fix problems. So I was I would rather someone came to me and said, right, we are on this for six weeks or three months. And then that's the focus. And then we're off, as opposed to just working with someone, you know, week in week out on a normal sort of PT scenario. That's what I did. After Well, I'm not I'm doing less than that I'm doing much more talks and all that kind of jazz, but like that's what I did for the last six years. So my aim was that I want to do this for six years until my my youngest gets into reception. He started reception in September. And I just knew that at that point, I wanted to be in a position where I could do something bigger, and I had no real. There wasn't like a linear progression. I just had this belief that when you know when Cooper's at school, I want to be in a place where I can really take this work into a much bigger space and meet and reach a much bigger audience. And it all just kind of just kind of happen. But but it did. AndI just I just spent six years learning my craft and working with all different types of women. And the more I got into it, I am saying the same things over and over and over again. And, you know, I work with women, you know, recently who suffered with sexual abuse, I worked with young athletes, I worked with lots of pregnant women, obviously, postnatal women, lots of women who had gynaecological surgeries. And there are people like that. I'm not the only one doing this. There are plenty of people did this, but there's not that many. And there's not that many that can kind of take this really holistic approach to it. And also give women the belief and be positive and say, right, this is where we're starting. It's 100% of that where you want to be, but I've got a plan to get you into a better into a better place.

 

Catie Friend  24:17

And you said what you said you're saying the same things. What are those same things

 

Baz Moffat  24:22

 that you're saying that you constipated?Literally, honestly, I have that conversation. All the time with we made like about clothes debated the constipation chat. And that was a big that was like just a classic, you're more likely to be constipated. But because you're a woman, and as you age, you are more likely to get constipated. But it's also throughout your menstrual cycle. There might be times when you are more constipated because because of progesterone, like it's it slows down your digestion. So it is less than it is when progestogen is low, your digestion is slower thanWater is taken out of your soul as it's travelling around your gut. But what it means is that if you think of your pelvis, you've got your bladder, your bowel at the back, and you've got your womb, your uterus in the middle and your bladder at the front. If you are constipated, it essentially means a stool in your bowel, which you haven't excrete it is taking up space within your pelvis. So it's more likely that you will have you will, you will leak urine because you're kind of like pressing on that bladder. The first reason and the second reason is if you're constipated, and we've all been constipated at some point in our life, you know that you have to strain to excrete. And that puts huge amounts of pressure on the pelvic floor. Oh, it stretches the pelvic floor, that beyond where it should be going. So if you're chronically in that state is not great. And it also massively increases your risk of prolapse. And it's not. So like, essentially, anyone comes to me with pelvic floor issue. It's bowels, first of all right.

 

Catie Friend  25:54

Wow. Who knew? Exactly. Well, you obviously. And so you're saying that there are different times that pelvic floor becomes an issue? You know, it can't be all the time. But you know, one of the obvious ones that me as a mum I think of is, well, you know, I can't do very much skipping or jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, babies, even though one of them came out the sunroof, it's still affected, and what are the other but then you've also mentioned that, or I've read that it's, it can be affected post menopause as well. During enough menopause. What happens then just you know, asking for a friend.

 

Baz Moffat  26:33

Yeah. So for medicals you're eating, you know, your ovaries stop producing oestrogen, and each one is responsible for about 400 things in your body. And we have set receptors all over our body for each region. And if you haven't got Asia in your system, then those cells don't work so well. And so muscles rely on each other for their strength and their tone. And so when patients gone, then that's why you know, we lose muscle strength and muscle tone, and the pelvic floor is a muscle, and therefore,it just reduces in its strength and also the vaginal tissue. It loves oestrogen. So it to get plumpness. And it's like lubrication. It relies on having less vision in the system. So that's why metaphors like, regardless of whether women have had babies or not, is often a really tough time in terms of their pelvic health.

 

Catie Friend  27:21

Wow. So yeah.Mass is a huge subject. And I know that's kind of your area of expertise, as we've just discussed. But you've now linked up with Emma and Bella to put together the well now I came across it, I think because I heard Emma speaking on Laura Penhaul and Maek Beaumont's Endurance podcast. Yes. And then Iinterviewed Laura, and you know, so all sorts of connections. And I watched your very first webinar. Just absolutely blown away. Now I am an educated sporty woman in my late 40s with a read, you know, I've had a bit had two rounds of IVF I've had two babies. So I've, you know, I felt like I was pretty familiar with my own body. And, and I just sat there going, Oh, my God. Um, you know, and that's someone with that kind of background and talk to me like, I don't even know where to start. But all the things that you talked about, you know, periods and breasts and pregnancy and perimenopause, and menopause, and all the things. Talk to me about what has given you the three of you this, like, impetus to really start this movement is a movement.

 

Baz Moffat  28:40

You're absolutely right. It's a total movement. It's what we describe as a revolution. Because we what was given us the impetus was that no one was doing it. And we couldn't quite believe that no one was doing it. And we're like, how is no one doing this, though, I spent my whole life in elite sport, talking about marginal gains and talking about how can we, you know, get like point 01 second of this time, but you know, having the right feathers in our pillows, at nighttime, a little better quality sleep. And no one talked to me ever about my menstrual cycle. And they will talk to me about my sports bra, which we know now from the research is not is not a marginal gain. It's like massive, massive impact. And also, if you flip that to the other end of the spectrum, in terms of participation, like women are not participating in Sport and Exercise, because the environment is not a place where they feel welcome or where they feel they truly belong. So we put there was also you know, I think there was a huge amount of momentum now gathering in this space. But if we look back 18 months, when we started thinking about this, there was information coming out around gender data gaps, I think, you know, Caroline criado, Perez had written that amazing book called invisible women.

 

Catie Friend  29:52

Oh, yes, which I have and haven't read yet.

 

Baz Moffat  29:55

You must and it's kind of it started off there's kind of a bit of a movement aroundOh, this outrage, you know, around Oh my god, yo, did you know that there's no female statues in Westminster? Did you know that the transport systems are totally designed for men, and it just, it just created is like, and then there's another book written about how female How about medicine about how medicine is not designed for females and how, you know, the meds by drugs are tested on male rats and male sales and males. As all this stuff started coming out, and, and no one was providing a solution, everyone was kind of like looking at the problem and identify the problem. And that was really, really important work. But we were like, Oh my god, you know what, like, we know enough lay, there was enough of an evidence base to create a solution. Were also three women who have lived experiences of being women. And also the three of us have worked with 1000s of women between us helping them and making a difference. And so we thought, you know what, we can do this, we can put something together and be part of the solution. And what was amazing was that we recently did a webinar. And it was full of sports coaches, and PE teachers and people that worked like a national governing body level. And they were all like, Oh, my God, we have just accepted this, we have accepted, let's go through sport, women get paid less. But there's less of a progression. And you have just given us about 20 tools to use that we can implement straightaway and like, and that's what motivated us because we knew we could do it, we knew there was an absolutely brilliant combination of having an academic doctor and medical doctor and myself being you know, having been an athlete and being a coach, there was this amazing combination of knowledge and experience, but fundamentally believe that health and performance can sit alongside each other and, and that has never, that there is so much work to be done in that field. But that's what we fundamentally believe that you cannot train a woman in a way that destroyed her, whether that's mentally, physically, emotionally, so that the rest of her life is impacted by those two years of hyping up two or three years of being at the top of her game. A woman's health must be taken into consideration and and coaches and sports have to start taking responsibility for that.

 

Catie Friend  32:12

Why?I know the answer to this, because I've heard it, but and perhaps you can explain why there has been no studies, you know, on female athletes.

 

Baz Moffat  32:23

Yeah. So 4% of sports science research has exclusively done on women. And I think that 60% of that is deemed to be really bad quality. So the amount of information is really, really low. It's not so I studied sport, science degree and master's level. And it's and women are seen as too complicated because of our hormonal profile. So men have hormones, but they don't have a monthly cycles. They don't they fluctuate every day. So their cortisol and testosterone levels, and, you know, whatever else will will fluctuate quite predictably throughout the day, whereas women have these monthly rhythms and cycles. And also, we know that 50% of athletes are on hormonal contraception as well. So it's just six, if you think about, you can just gather a group of men and do the same kind of research on them. Actually, you need to, you need to factor in, like, what stage of the cycle a woman is, at what whether she's on hormonal contraception or not. And it's just seen as too complicated. I remember having conversations, like, you know, with my lecturers and advisors that are there, we just don't do women.But they do complex, and it will just apply, we'll apply what we learned from men to women. And it's just never and that's Yeah, which is, and it's only, it's only just recently where the impact that physiology has, is being recognised and the impact it has on the potential strength gains and their fitness and all that is starting to be recognised and it and it's, you know, something has happened sort of over the last 4 or five years, really.

 

Catie Friend  33:57

And that's nothing given how much research there's been on male athletes in the last however many 100 or so years. I mean, that's just like, that's like a nanosecond compared to today. And so what do you think, will? Or what is your hope your dream, your sort of absolute dream scenario that this sort of will mean for? Let's start with for elite athletes, first of all, yeah.

 

Baz Moffat  34:25

Well, you know, I, my dream is that health, a female that we can put the female back into being an athlete. So, up until now, it's all about being a quote, it's been all about equality, it's about being having equality of access to facilities, access to competition, the right you know, the same quality of hotels as the men, that kind of thing. But by doing by, by doing that, that the female part of being an athlete has been taken out. So I really feel that they the health of a female can be taken care of, in a way. That's not JoIt's seen as a weakness that women are able to talk about their menstrual cycle pain, talk about their fear of having endometriosis talk about the fact that when they're on the bike seat, their vulva really hurt and look at it and say, Oh my god, this is outrageous. They call it before they need surgery, that that is my dream for athletes. And also for sports. My dream is that they they start having education programmes that our teachers,we have, we are we are talking to top sports doctors in the world who don't know what we know. Right? This is, and that's because they have never ever been taught. We are talking to heads of PE in very, very sporty private girls schools, who have been women who have got who had themselves have gone to a male boarding school. And they have literally had one lesson in their in their year right about female biology. And now they are head of PT and a girl school at neither common. That is a common story that comes out. So at no point is anybody taught about female physiology, or anatomy it they talked about sex and talks about how not to get pregnant, but they're not talked about the hormones. And so we need to start Incorporated, we need to start you know, we have coaching qualifications, which are like how to coach children how to coach primary age children how to coach, teenagers, but not how to coach females going through puberty, how to keep you attend, yet, what can we do for your 10? girls? What What do elite x female athletes need? There is no there is no qualification, or education around this anywhere, the focus is bonkers. I was gonna ask you about, you know how, because men need to be part of this solution. 100%. And that was really, we spent so much time and so much money on our branding and our approach and our language around this because we know that most female athletes already most athlete coach relationships are female, male, so most females are coached by males. And so we have to make it really, really clear that we are about females, we are not just for females,everybody is welcome to come and learn from us. And actually, what has been brilliant is that we get emails every day from guys who are like, Oh, my God, thank you so much. I've been coaching girls, young girls for, you know, for 20 years, 30 years. And I know that I've needed to know other things, but there's been no appropriate way for me to learn information. I have not known who to go and ask about periods or breath or sports bras, because it's been it could well have been interpreted in the wrong way. You have now you you brought it to me in a way that I can access and they are just so grateful for that.

 

Catie Friend  37:48

And how do male coaches go about that? Because, you know, you hear such horror stories of Yeah, the you know, elite athletes, and, you know, just came out about the, you know, the gymnastics in the US, sort of thing that you hear all the time and how, how is it manageable?

 

Baz Moffat  38:05

It has to be, it has to be acknowledged that this is a tough conversation. And I think, you know, we have what we call like an act braver framework. And it's a framework that we've kind of put together to help coaches start having these conversations in a way that is totally appropriate. So for example, we know that 50% of school girls don't wear sports bras to do sport. So you can imagine if you go in as a young PE teacher and say, or an old PE teacher say right girls who wear a sports bra that will come across as a really inappropriate conversation. So you'd have to, you know, with that example, you'd write to the parent and you say, right, this is we are going to be talking about this for these reasons. Because these are the performance gains, there is this there's a school, there's a school bra, or these are the these are the brands that we recommend, and when I'm talking to your girls on Wednesday afternoon, and these are the points I'm going to cover, and then in that meeting, it will be right because I've written to your parents, they although we're going to be having this conversation, it might feel a bit weird, but this is where we're having it and it's kind of, you've got to bring it down to you've always got to say why you're having the conversation and why it's important. And then I think also making sure that you have signposting out to people that they might not be feel comfortable talking to you. But if they're a school nurses or a school counsellor is there ahead of year that can take that they can then go to and it's just making sure that you don't just go in and have a random conversation. Anyone that hormonal contraception, like you call it, you got to acknowledge that you are going to trigger that at some point you are going to trigger some stuff talking about these things. And therefore you have to have built in support around it.

 

Catie Friend  39:38

Yeah. It's fascinating. And I'm quite interested because the big thing on your one of the big things that Oh, keep seeing on your feed at the moment is about sports. Yes. And this extraordinary we seek I am feeling really bad because I'm sitting here in a terrible bra while I'm talking to you.And I knew whenever we get on this morning that I was going to talk to you aboutLike, this does not fit me properly. And I begin in very big trouble. But I think it's just not something has ever bothered me because I have this smaller breasted variety. Yeah, but I'm so I'm fascinated to hear, because I've always known that my girlfriends with big boobs have gone, oh, it's a nightmare, I can't run or I feel this or blah, blah, blah. But I'm fascinated to hear that it's important for all of us, regardless of the boob size.

 

Baz Moffat  40:26

I know it's because your breasts are just skin, there's nothing holding them on, you know, so they're kind of like so even the brilliant story that Dr. Ross always says tells us incredibly well, if you were stood on the start of a marathon and you hadn't your your clothes next to you, and the only difference was your bras and one of you had what you're wearing today. And one of you had a really good sports bra and wealth into sports bra, the person with a well fitting sports bra would finish a mile ahead of the person with the ill fitting sports bra. Now that is that doesn't that doesn't matter how big your boobs are, whether you're a B cup, or whether you're a D cup, whether you're an eight minute mile or a six minute mile, it doesn't, it makes no difference. It's the it's because our boobs move so much that it's the boobs move so much that it kind of really impacted our biomechanics, our stride length and how we breathe. And it's really important that we're, yeah, that were being that were being fitted properly. But again, we're talking with schools and quite a lot of private schools who are like, Oh my God, we don't even have a sports bra as part of our kids. Like it's not. And when I was growing, we didn't have sports bras, and it wasn't World Championships, it was that we got them. But we were made to feel the bestsports bra. And it wasn't a sports bra, it was a quarter. And if you had just had to put two on do you know, it's like, the amount of technology that goes into like, you know, the boats and the blades and the, you know, the warm ups and everything. And no one was looking at our bras and they are now just but it's Yeah, it's crazy.

 

Catie Friend  42:02

So how would one go about finding the right size and for one's build?

 

Baz Moffat  42:08

Yeah, so there are there are there's a brilliant research group in Portsmouth so if you're like what a throw everything at it, and you've got, you know, you'd go and have a test or you'd go on a treadmill, and they try with different browsers. And they, they, you know, they put electrodes on you to see how much your boobs are moving that kind of an elite athlete kind of thing. For the rest of us. There are some you know, there are some brilliant brands now which have brought, you know, we've had research departments. And so you want to make sure most if you're doing high impact sport, you need a bra as opposed to a crop tops and you need something that kind of compartmentalises both of your boobs, so it's kind of just like having one Wait, it needs to you need to have been, yeah, like a proper sports bra. And it needs to be fitted. Well, I think that theyou know that there are that shock absorber sweaty Betty, there'll be more andmore name, but they they all have brought research departments and I think not connected. So not that bad either. I think they kind of like do it as well. But making sure you're having that high impact in a bra a proper bra fit as opposed to a small, medium large.

 

Catie Friend  43:12

Yes, yes. Because the thing is, despite the fact that you know, I'm not don't have big boobs, I'm I'm nearly six feet tall. And big. So you know, some people always say, oh, you'd be a small and I'm like, Well, no, I'm not. Because I'm quite broad. And so it's always that. Yeah, I've never Yeah, never. I'm kind of aware immediately and research.For my marginal gains, are not Mars. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I one of the things I read on your website is that this quote that really struck me and it's something that we I spoke about right at the beginning, and it You said something, I'm sort of paraphrasing, but women shouldn't need to study how to be a woman, it should be already in our culture. Yeah, environment. So what can we do as women? You know, I'm a mom bringing up a daughter, sporty daughter, what can we do? And also, I'm bringing up a son, so you know, equally as important. How, what can we teach, I teach my daughter,

 

Baz Moffat  44:14

you need to talk about what you're going through that you need to talk about your men and we need to use the right language. Like, you know, my kids are quite small. They're five and six, don't sorry, yeah, they are 565 and six, forgot that. And I A few weeks ago, or even a couple of months ago, they asked me a question about sex or something or like you know, women's bits and men's bits and and I use really just rubbish language and I was so ashamed of myself I got bad if you can't use this right language. How on earth can you expect other people to so from that point on I was that right? I'm gonna whenever they ask me a question, I'm going to tell them as it is, and I am so now we use we use exactly the right terms and actually, they they are totally fine with it. They are totally fine with it.If I'm the one with the issue saying testicles and sperm and vagina and penis, but I'm the one that kind of like if it awkward, and I think that it's just, you know, if they say, Oh, what's that? And it's a tampon, you say, Oh, it's a tampon and you know, sometimes when we had when we had what's called a period every month and you don't have I just answer whatever question they have in a very black and white unemotional way, I don't say, Oh, it's a bit of, it's something special for mummies or like, and I think with daughters, it's, you know, when they get to eight and nine, it's making sure that you know, if you have a partner that they're involved to, and it's like that they know that you have a conversation about their periods and their menstrual cycles, and what might happen and what products you think they might want to consider to kind of have a little bag which they take everywhere with them. You know,your, your partner can do that, too, if they've got that. And we know that, that those relationships are really important when it comes to sport. But often when it gets to puberty, that it might be different one situation where maybe that girl goes off to a weekend event, starts a period is to embarrass the dads to get some sanitary products and spends a whole day running in and out of the toilet is stuffing our pants with lube. And then she'll be like, I'm not gonna and there's no way I'm going with my dad again. And but had that dad been able to say, oh, I've got them in the bag, or let's just make sure you know, do you need this? It just, it's just making sure that we normalise all the life stages and that, that we don't hide the fact that someone's had a hysterectomy or we don't hide the fact that someone's struggling postnatally that we talk about it and there's been not, they're not relying on I remember going to an amazing talk about sex education. And there was a porn, there's a lady that that was in into porn, but she was right, what's got your porn positive? Like she was kind of like she? Yeah, she was just part of the porn scene. Women, that porn. pornography is blamed for a lot of the issues that young people have with sex, it is not a poor man's problem. It's that they are not being educated anywhere else. So we have to take responsibility for educating our children so that they don't go online to find out what a vagina looks like, in which case is online and they say, Oh, is that there's no pubic hair, there's no, we have to have to smell nice. We need deodorant. If that's where they're getting their information from, then that is not right. We have to we have to be the people educating them about their bodies.

 

Catie Friend  47:25

And incredible, that's really powerful stuff. I've always been a bit of a believer in, you know, I'm not obviously using the right words, I guess. But I'm a big believer, you know, in normalising everything. And I had quite a good example of that growing up. So I was lucky. You know, we talk about everything in this house. And it's really important. It's really important. I couldn't agree more. Do you ever get overwhelmed because I read a lot of the stuff the stats that you put out on your your Instagram and the stuff on your website? And, and and I feel overwhelmed thinking, Oh, my god, there's so much that could be done that can be done that needs to be done. Like, are you? Do you ever get feelings of thinking, how are we ever going to get this done already? have you managed to break it down and you're thinking this is my plan? We're going to nail this.

 

Baz Moffat  48:17

And I think it's almost the opposite. Like we were writing a book at the moment, and there was an idea. We kind of like writing it together. And so in certain sections, some of the statistics are outrageous, like outrageous, but we're writing them in a very nonchalant way. And it's almost like we're desensitised to it. You know, we're desensitised. So I often say, This is incredible that you can't describe that and not acknowledge that this is incredible. And I, I don't get overwhelmed at all. I just see, I, I know that this is a 510 year plan like this, we we are literally at the start. And it's messy. And there's loads to do. But I'm like how excited like, women are doing so well. And it's phenomenal, like the where we're at. But we're there without any we haven't even touched the sides on the true potential of what we can achieve. So for me, I genuinely I'm not just saying this, I genuinely find it really exciting because I'm like if we can actually educate women, educate those who support them, provide facilities andfacilities that where women feel truly welcome. Like how amazing would that be?

 

Catie Friend  49:35

 Oh, it's absolutely extraordinary. And one of the things I came away from your webinar with and one of the reason I am literally instantly messaged you going please come andhave the genuine and sincere enthusiasm and excitement that I felt from all three of you. I mean, they just busting through that screen like you were sitting. Actually I was sitting in bed, soBut weird, you're sitting in bed with me. But yeah, you know, like you were actually I was there and I just thought, wow, this is something that they are truly genuinely enthusiastic about.

 

Baz Moffat  50:11

We are and, you know, there was that webinar that you did, there was 800 people on that webinar. And we did it four weeks later. And we have 900. And it's like, how is this, we've only been going since Janet, we're going to be going for like two and a bit months. And we're already generating this interest and we are talking, you know, the business side of it will come right out, you know, that will come but they the interest and the impact. And the way we have got into that the top level having conversations, and they the top, the people we have we talked to within sports, many times say almost that they feel it's a can of worms and were described, they describe our work as a can of worms. And they say we don't want to open that can of worms. And we'll just have to sit there and take a breath and just almost wait for them to realise what they've just said before we actually like go back at them. But this is why we are playing the long game. We know this is gonna take ages, but we're ready we are we're here. We're not we're not in a rush. We're not in a rush. It's, it's the right is 100% the right thing to do, but it has to happen. And we know that the three of us and everyone that works with us and supports us is like, you know, is a really, really strong group to help make this happen.

 

Catie Friend  51:20

And how are you? What do you have plans. Because easy for me, I have internet access, I have, you know, resources. And you know, as I say, a good relationship with my own body and sport and so on. This must be very, sort of even more challenging to get to people, women, specifically without necessarily the advantages that I have. So in marginalised areas of society,

 

Baz Moffat  51:50

totally, and that is very much on our radar, and very much, you know, we also we are three white middle class heterosexual women. And so we kind of got the, that's the lens that we see this world through. So we are really, really aware of that. And it's something that we are constantly working on. And it's the I think that the work that we're doing in schools specifically, although the money will probably come from independent, it's very much being developed, so that it will support the state system too. And we can't, we can't fix all women, but it's very much like isn't that this is not just us going out there fixing the people that can afford to work with us or, or afford to kind of like spend money on themselves. It's very much part of our business model. But you know, we've got to have the money coming in so that we can then do the do the charitable work as well.

 

Catie Friend  52:40

And so you've mentioned briefly a book Tell us about that

 

Baz Moffat  52:43

IT was a bit of a journey.We've been at Dr. Emma Ross, who we talked about is very, very clever.To say so we we've gone along, and we we've gone along the self publishing route, but we're now kind of starting to think well, maybe we should go traditional publishing. So we're just starting to explore that route. And hopefully, in the next few weeks, we'll be able to kind of like share some more news on that. But it's there. There is a book and it is our like, we're just it's our life's work, it's kind of like everything that we feel every woman should should know about their bodies, and so that they can, that the information isn't out there and is where we feel we sit is where between academia and kind of influenced us. So we have, you know, you have all the academics, who are very, very clever, and all the doctors, they're not so great always at communicating their message in an accessible way. You know, that. And then you've got the employees who kind of come from a sort of an individual perspective about how they are coping with their lives and what's going on. So we kind of like got this book that is trying to provide an evidence based approach, but also in a really real way with loads of stories and loads of practical advice and loads the top tech so it's kind of a really accessible way to access it. There will be a book I cannot tell you when it's going to be coming out. But it's written it's just a case of working out the best way to get out there

 

Catie Friend  54:09

and social media Where can we find you

 

Baz Moffat  54:12

or at the well hashtag that the well, HQ. So we're on we're on Instagram, we're on Twitter, we're on Facebook, and we're on LinkedIn and so yeah, so and we're pretty active on all on all those platforms and well I did clubhouse if you don't clubhouse Yeah, totally. Do you love clubhouse Do you? Oh my god it petrified me but I have so many people that Cobra has come on prep has been dabbling. I mean, we aren't there just yet but we might be doubling the power of this patch bothers me but it's not the head around it.

 

Catie Friend  54:43

And then there's the obviously the website and I'll put all of this in the show notes. So that's great. No challenge Katie What have you got for me bass

 

Baz Moffat  54:51

pelvic floor exercises. Do you do them?

 

Catie Friend  54:54

Not really.

 

Baz Moffat  54:55

Right. So every single woman needs to do a pelvic floor exercises. Even If you don't have any issues, but because it said your late 40s, you are going to be perimenopause or menopause or at some stage relatively soon. So we need to get you ahead of the curve, right. So what I want you to do is if you haven't already got it on your phone, download the NHS squeezy app, which will cost you three pounds, actually, are you.So you need to do it. So you need to then do it every single day. So you need to do your 10 proper exercises, but you turn them on exercises your attentional exercises, once a day, every day, and after 10 days, you will start to feel it's easier. But and the best top tip from me is that you will never feel like doing them you work out well. What should I do? Now? I know.It's not like that. So you have to try and say, okay, just make it a habit so that you don't have to think about it. So we don't, I don't want you to kind of increase your mental load by having to think when am I going to do these because you then start presenting them. And so do them at a time, which is, you know, whether it's part of your exercise routine, or B, I often do them. When I come into my office, I sit down. I put my 3d app on, and I just do them then for three minutes. It's almost like the first thing I do before I start work.

 

Catie Friend  56:11

Ah, good. Yes. That's always the key to starting a habit, isn't it to attach it to something else? Yes. Yes. Awesome. You know, because I did do it for a while.

 

Baz Moffat  56:20

And then yeah, you need to honestly you need to get back on it because you only lived half your life, right? So you need this pelvic floor to last year. Because if you if you fast forward 30 40 years, your continence is your independence and it relies reliant on your pelvic floor strength.

 

Catie Friend  56:36

Oh, that's a good, that's a scared me into it.

 

Baz Moffat  56:39

I will check. I'll check in with you to make sure you're doing this.

 

Catie Friend  56:42

You can check on check on my skipping exercises. Brilliant Baz, thank you so much. That was absolutely just even more fascinating than I thought it would be.For your time really, so important for all of us, as you say not just for women, but for our men folk to understand and be able to support as well.

 

Baz Moffat  57:04

Thank you so much for having me.

 

57:12

Thanks for joining me. I'll be back next week with another incredible episode of chatting to a friend. In the meantime, please give us a follow on Instagram chatting to a friend for all the latest news. Bye bye”

Chatting to Karine Fragnière

Karine Fragniere.jpg

Karine Fragniere is a 52 year old Swiss mother of 4 who did her first Ironman triathlon at the age of 50. She then went on to win her age category in the Zurich Ironman and qualify to compete at the World Championships in Kona, Hawaii.

 We chat about how to juggle motherhood and sport, ensuring the essential element of self care and making yourself a “more available mother” to your children. How to deal with mummy guilt, how exercise can help with your mental as well as physical health.

 We talk about the importance of friendship and community, the benefits to children of growing up with a sporty mother and all about her new book, Ironmum.

 She is now a coach, helping to spread the love of sport, health and wellbeing to other people.

 You can find her book and more information on her coaching on www.ironmum.ch and follow her on Instagram on @ironmum.ch as well as on Facebook.

 A really inspiring conversation that will motivate you to skip out the door for a swim, bike or run (or maybe all three!).

Transcript

Please note transcripts are generated by arifiical intelligence so may not be 100% accurate.

SPEAKERS

Catie Friend and Karine Fragniere

 

Catie Friend  00:02

Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries, and how they keep healthy, happy unsane. Today I'm chatting to gain funnier getting is a 52 year old Swiss mother for I don't normally start by introducing my guests by their age, but in this case, it's particularly relevant because having been active and looked after her well being all her life, at the age of 50 gain stepped up a notch and took part in her very first Iron Man. And not only that, but she went on to win her age group in Zurich and qualified to compete at the mythical Ironman World Championships in Kona in Hawaii. And today, we're going to have a chat about that journey about wellbeing in general, and touching also on the age old question of looking after yourself and the mommy guilt that can come with that. Good morning, Karen. How are you today?

 

01:11

Good morning, Katie. I'm very good. How are you? Fine.

 

Catie Friend  01:14

Thank you so great of you to join me. I'm really really excited because I absolutely ripped through your book. Almost in one go. It was so exciting. Iron Man the name of your new book. Do you want to give us a quick rundown of what what it's about?

 

01:30

Yeah, I would love to so it's the it's basically my story of, of my quest for well being which started very, very young as a young girl, I would say. And well being basically really looking for my physical well being first and discovering that Endurance Sports make me really feel good. And not only make me feel good physically, but also mentally and make me be a better person. And this is really my my, my quest. This was my quest, and I discovered the endurance sport, but even triathlon was really the, the activity that I enjoyed the most. And the book is about that. It's about this quest, and it's about my Iron Man experience as a 16 year old mother of four children. So I participated in my very first Ironman when I was 50. And I went all the way to Hawaii, participating in the world championships. And yeah, that's about I hope I didn't say too much about it, that people still want to read it. But I think so.

 

Catie Friend  02:46

Yeah, no, that's amazing. And I have to tell you that I loved it for two reasons for actually for both, it's sort of a game of two halves the book, obviously, there's the story of getting to Hawaii and for those listeners who may not know understand triathlon, obviously a swim, bike run, but then the mega the biggest triathlon of all is, of course, the Iron Man, which is what 3.4 kilometres swim, is that right? Five

 

03:09

8.8

 

Catie Friend  03:10

Yeah, 180 kilometres of bike and full marathon. And it is the one of the reasons I loved the story and find it very emotional is because I'm married to an iron man, who I supported through Zurich, and Kona. And so I was living it almost with you, I knew I know the course not as an athlete, but as a as a full on supporter. And so I understand the similarities of your two experiences are quite incredible that you know, swimming, not being your favourite, being really disappointed when you can't wear your wetsuit because you lose that bit of buoyancy, just that all the sorts of things that I lived through with him. And I also loved Of course, the second part of it. Well, the running theme, obviously, but the the second half is all about the well being the physical well being, as you say, in the mental well being. And I just wanted to ask, how do you I know this is you've been doing this for a very, from a very young age. When I took up sports, I didn't take up sport till I was 38. properly. I mean, I skied and I rode horses, not to a very high standard of each. But when I took up sport, it wasn't actually my Iron Man husband that inspired me because it was quite it's quite intimidating to be around somebody who's at that level. How do you manage to inspire people? Like I was perhaps just coming out of early motherhood, because it was my best friend who suddenly decided to run a five key that inspired me. How do you how do you talk to women who are like me not sporty and want to get into it? Yeah, sure.

 

04:45

So my my personal personal experience with that was that I really took a chance from when they were babies were sleeping. And I had someone of course, looking after them. I would take 45 minutes for myself and go out and explore the the surroundings and I realised that then, little by little, I would put my sneakers on instead of just my shoes and then and then started to run. And that gave me such a boost. And made me I would say, really a more available mom, when I was coming home. I was, I was feeling healthy, I was speeding ahead, C boosted and I was feeling so strong. And maybe it was the connection with my own with my buddy that was that had happened also the connection to nature, the sun, and I was just so energised, that I felt like I was a I was a better person, and I was more available for my children. Because I know how extremely tiring It is to be 20 hours a day. Therefore, for your kids, I say 20 hours because you don't always get a full night's sleep. And I just this is was my This was my experience as a mother that it really gave me so much energy to be a better, not a better but to be more available and always there for a man who was there for her kids.

 

Catie Friend  06:22

That's amazing. I wish I honestly cannot tell you how much I wish I had known that when my kids were tiny. And I know you had twins first as well, which is extremely hard work from what I know. I see the thing is I used to look at mums that did stuff for themselves. And you know, with all hand on heart all honesty I used to I used to judge I used to think how can you need to be with your children all the time. And I really wish that I had known that. I've just had a question on Instagram actually from a friend of mine Saracens that, who is a phenomenal athlete in her own right. She has two young kids. And she says Did you or do you ever have the guilt? The Mummy guilt for taking the time to train and compete? And if so, how do you get over it? Or is it just not something you've ever had?

 

07:13

No, no, I have definitely I have felt guilty, being away from them. And, and taking care of myself. But then what happened was two things I realised that I was a better person or a better mom after than before. And that's the first thing and then the second thing that was that I realised that it's really it would be such a shame that while I'm taking time for myself, that I feel guilty and that I I waste this precious time this precious hour I took for myself. So you know it's not going to help my kids if I if I feel guilty about it. Because I'm not there anyway, so I better make the best of it and really, really enjoy it. And and that yeah. So Mike Sutton says it's not selfish to do what's best for you. And I feel like when you take care of yourself and you really yeah, you take responsibility tu tu tu tu to enjoy it at the max that the maximum you are then it's okay. It's it's what you it's what you should do that as a mother.

 

Catie Friend  08:31

I quite I agree. No, I definitely do because I spent four days walking literally just last week. And the first day and a half probably I was a bit twitchy not because I particularly missed them or because I I just you know, that sort of you're just used to being there. I'm used to being here all the time. And then I said to myself exactly that I thought why are you wasting this beautiful time on your own? Feeling bad feeling guilty, they're loved, they're looked after they're having quality time with their dad, and they're just, you know, I as you say will be a better mom more patient calmer, less anxiety filled when I get home with stories to tell.

 

09:13

Absolutely. It's I love it. And it's an it's it's really, it's really how also what also I thought that they are fine. And, and they are and it's great for them to have someone else look after them for once in a while. And for them, not only for us as moms but for them. It's also it's also a great opportunity to learn another mother more skills. And then finally also when they when you come back. It's also beautiful to see how you know to feel like they miss you. And this is a new reward. Also, not seeing that the others don't do the right doo doo doo did well, but you know, they miss us mothers so it's nice to see them realised, I

 

Catie Friend  10:00

also think, from my experience, I spent so much time feeling like I had to be there all the time. And only I could do everything but no, when I go, I see what a really lovely relationship they're building with their own routines with with my husband. You know, they they have a relation is really important that relationship they have with him, which perhaps they didn't have when they were younger, because I was very much the kind of mom that went, just, it's fine. I'll just, I'll just do it. You know, and that that I never really met perhaps gave the opportunity because it always I felt like I was the only person who could do it, I think is sometimes a downfall. Certainly for me, I was a full time mom. And I think that's, that can be a big downfall.

 

10:41

Yeah, I can totally relate to that. It's hard to let go in the beginning when when we know so much better than anyone else. Yeah,

 

Catie Friend  10:52

it is. And he you said, when I read that, when you had your twins, you were living in New York, and you were far from family did you have, you know, that's how I bring up my kids. We're living here in Switzerland, we don't have family around a boat. So for me, for my husband, our family, our community, our friends, our everything, it's so important, how important and how much has that played a part in your life, bringing up kids and achieving all the incredible sporting things that you've done?

 

11:22

Were very, very important. So as you said that I was not in at home, I was in New York. And luckily, I had two very, very good friends, I met two beautiful woman, women who became my I say, soul sisters who helped me throughout those, those nights when my husband was travelling, and they were they came to my place to help me take care of the babies in take take turns. So basically, I could sleep a little bit while while one one of my friends would look up to one baby, or put him back, put him up, put her back to sleep. So definitely, I mean, their presence was very precious. And then when I came back to Switzerland, after that, my mom and my dad were available, and they could really help me, especially during the afternoon nap. So I could ask one of them to come and look after the stay at home while I while I was going on by bike or, or swimming or running. So yeah, that was really very, very helpful.

 

Catie Friend  12:30

And talking of friends, I read in your book that you had, you had Susan, your swimming buddy, when you were training, how important because you know, again, referring to my own experience, I was not really sporty until after I had my kids and I realised that I had to if I didn't get up and do something, they would all be out cycling up calls and you know, doing adventures and I'd be on the couch. And so it was actually finding sporty friends which is not something I'd ever really had before that really pushed me inspired me and I try to make it a rule to not not say no to my sporty friends even when they are intimidatingly fast or fit because of how much you learn when you go out with people who know what they're doing. And how important were your sporty friendships during your sort of preparation? Well, it's not your life.

 

13:25

I would say for me, it's, I can motivate myself to do sports. So but I know I'm different from from, from many. So this is my self discipline. Which which makes me which allows me to be you know, to say okay, well Okay, now I have an hour and I'll go and but but talking about friends of course Susan was it she came at exactly the right moment where I wouldn't have I'm not sure if I would have believed I could do more than just an Olympic triathlon, which is the 1.5 kilometre swim plus 40 kilometres kilometres bike ride and then 10 kilometres run. I told that that's it, that's already a huge achievement. But Susan came there came at that moment where and she said, Oh, let's do a 17.3, which is the half Ironman distance, and I never, I don't know if without her I would have had to start and so she was basically the initiator for that and to believe that I could do more. And until we started to train together, because for me, it was really like a big big step. Yeah, it was a big step in my in my in my adventure, and a bit overwhelming, I would say and because she was just, oh, let's do it. I said, Okay, I'll follow. And so that was really that's what helped That's that that was the kickoff kickoff. And then we started, we met for the swim because we were both bad bad swimmers. Really, really, I mean, I said, Now, at hindsight, I know I was not a good swimmer. And it was such a motivation to meet two, two times a week, for an hour for 45 minutes at the pool, because we were both reading it so much. And, and even if we couldn't talk too much, you know, between maybe in between with a word or two and say, Okay, let's go again. And, but it was a huge, huge motivation to be to be with her in the pool, and as well as on the bike. And on the run there, we were more like we had to be to adapt to our kids to our children's schedule. So the bike we're sometimes on the weekend, we do, we would do a long bike ride together. And that was also very, very nice to share. Especially when I trained for my very first Ironman 70.3 The weather was extremely bad in Switzerland, it was, I mean, I think it was grey and raining the whole spring, during the whole March, April, May, even June, it was still cold. And that was quite imitation. So it was a long answer, sorry, but yeah, definitely importance of friends for to stay, to stay focused and to, to believe we can go We can do it, because sometimes one of one of the friends is more daring. And, and another is more has other qualities. So even more disciplined, or whatever, so we can really use each other's strengths.

 

Catie Friend  16:51

Absolutely. When I trained for the pathway, the last year, the PDG, my teammates, and I, you know, and I was not the fittest, and I was not the best skier, but I like the statistics, I knew when we should eat and when we should, you know, be drinking and, and I like the technical aspects of it. And so we found our rules, we had one who was you know, just got our head down and got on with it, the other one who would push us just that little bit further, and me looking after the sort of technical aspects, and it's although that's actual team event, it is so good to train with people who, you know, same goal but slightly different natural tendencies to to help out in that way.

 

17:34

Absolutely. Did you do did you do long run or that as well? No, I did. Amazing. I know.

 

Catie Friend  17:42

Thank you Well, from from not doing any sport till I was 38 to doing the PDG when I was 45 was a huge achievement. And because I am not someone who's naturally motivated to do sports still not even these days, even though I know how good it is for me, I have to give myself a good talking to but you talked about Susan coming along at the right time now. We met very briefly last week. And I heard you say a couple of times that you don't believe in coincidence. Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that fits in with what you said about Susan

 

18:18

Of course well in the reasons let's say Mohammed no I would say All my life I could find these these coincidences which are not for me coincidence, but definitely Susan or another one which was based which which is linked to my mother. She passed away just in 2017 while I was doing my errand man adventure, like, like, just do my idea was just to do one errand man to finish one Iron Man one one day, and my mother passed away just after my first trial, which I had to stop because I broke my foot during the race. And and then because I knew I was pretty good. I decided to sign up for another Ironman, but I didn't know which one I should choose. And and it was really I it was a complicated decision because I knew you know, I wanted to qualify for Hawaii and I had to find the race which would match my my you know, my strength I where I would be the strongest. And I didn't know I wish I hadn't heard you say I made an Excel sheet. I was putting the four or five different races which would be interesting. Like to to be possible. There was Zurich in Switzerland, there was Sweden, that was Copenhagen. And and then I didn't know I said okay, this is this, this race would be better. For because it's late, this other race would be better because it's flat, and so on and so on. And, and one day, just like, once after my mom passed away, I, I, all of a sudden I thought, oh, we're not what are the dates of the of the of Zurich? And I thought of doing then. And I saw that it was my mother's birthday. Yeah. And, and, and the birthday was the date was 29th of July. And I said, Okay, I knew, I mean, I could feel it in all my body. And I said, Okay, that's the one. And I immediately signed up for Zurich, knowing that I would I raised with the, with the right one for me. And just a few weeks after that, I really had a vision. And I had just spent a few minutes in the house of my parents were, which was, of course, empty. And, and I was on my bike and going down back home. I all of a sudden, an image came from nowhere, and but very, very clear. And the image was that I was on the podium, and I was on the first I was on the making for us in Zurich, and it was so strong that I am so clear that I said, Okay, she's there, and she, my mom is there, and she's gonna help me and she's she will help me do it tonight. And she did. So mainland Asia, right. Yeah.

 

Catie Friend  21:33

Amazing. And talking of which, you know, there's so much put in, in store, with visualisation, you know, and your why and why you do it. And when I was training for the PDG, and you know, was losing focus, and losing is hard. And I was trying to juggle kids and my husband was also training for the bdg. That image of me running across the line, I had no great designs on winning, obviously. But the image of me running across the line and verbiage with my teammates, and my kids was so insanely strong, that that's what I hung on to. And that is what I you know, someone said, just remember why you're doing it. And so I you know, that's when it was hard when it was cold. It was raining when I was on the bubble going up to maybe at six in the morning thinking what am I doing? I was just thinking, you know, when I was trying to do my sprints and going I know what to do the last one. And I would say you will never run across that line. If you do not do that final Hill interval. You know, how much is that mental. I mean, obviously, this was a revision and to do with, you know, coincidence is speaking, but how much of visualisation is important in what you do what you've done,

 

22:50

I think it's very important to, to have a dream and to and to do, as you said before, to visualise yourself, going past during the flow going to the finish line and, and, and feeling the whole your body and your whole your whole soul like totally filled with love with with joy and pride and everything, I think this is very important to, to, as you said before, to keep you motivated in very difficult training, in trainings, intervals, and so on to in bad weather, and so on and so on. And then, to me, it's also very, very important to stay always to the why, as you said, it's really the, the why, because I love it, I could not have done this without loving the sport I do and and this is really central for me, I wish I had sometimes to, to rethink about to rehabilitate to reconnect to the pleasure of, of sports, while I was training because sometimes those trainings was so difficult and, and at the boring because they would Yeah, because I would repeat the same or not exactly the same but over and over again the same effort. And I had to I realised I had to, often to reconnect to my why and especially to the to the client or to to the the enjoyable part of it. And it's really key when when you do when you do such a such an Indian sport or such long effort, which are sometimes as you said before, you have to do in in rain or in very cold conditions or or early morning when you're you feel like just going going back to sleep.

 

Catie Friend  24:53

And that feeling that when you get that one gets when you cross the line and You can look back and see that it wasn't just the race, but the entire journey that you've been on. I mean, it's, it's pretty indescribable. And it's, as I say, something I did not experience until far too late in life. And it makes you feel like the queen of the world. And so it should, because regardless of whether you were first or last, you still did it. And it's all the early mornings, it's the crying because you it was too hard, or you've hurt yourself, and you don't know if you can carry on training, it's all of that. And there's that magnificent feeling of well being. What I sometimes struggle with is to retain that after the initial excitement has worn off, or if I don't have a race specifically to train for, how do you I know, you said you're quite internally motivated, but how do you remind yourself of that incredible feeling?

 

25:59

It's a very good question, or do you have Well, for me, it's more because the every, as I said before, like I tried to enjoy, and I do enjoy every session. I always find in every single training session, like, the fun or the pleasure, or, yeah, the if it's not during, it's after. So at least Yeah, and I would say I find it often during because I, I look outside, I look outside, I look, you know, I look around me, and I'm like, wow, you know, how, how beautiful it is. I'm so lucky, I'm so grateful to live in this country, where in Switzerland where, you know, there are mountains, there's a lake and the sun is shining, or anything like or I often I when I'm on my bike, and it's a long set, it's a long session, and I'm on board because you know, I'm I've seen the nature and then you know, it doesn't, then I just often I, I start to feel grateful for the relationships I have. And you know, it's these long moments that you have by yourself, where you it's, to me, it's like, it's a bit like a meditation. And, and I, I usually see always the positive things in the world. And in my life, when I'm on my on my bike or when I'm running, even though I may be suffering on, you know, going up a hill or so. But then I you know, this adrenaline and this effort is, is helping me see really everything, like all the beautiful all the beautiful things in my life. So this is how I stay motivated. It's always it's very positive. In to do that, for me

 

Catie Friend  27:56

it is it is I was just thinking before you said meditation, it is like a meditation and movement is very often you just get into the sound of your own breath, or your feet on the trail or your pedals going round or in the winter, the skins on this Oh, yeah. And there's that sort of just allowing yourself as a little bit like letting go of the guilt just a little bit letting go of the Oh, this is too hard. And just going, Okay, just go just keep going. And then and breaking it down into smaller chunks. So it doesn't, or finding something technical to look at. I like looking at technical things like my watch my cadence or that you know, sort of thing. I'm talking about meditation, and yoga, and I know that something that you incorporate into your daily life, as should we all I try to as well. I'm always brilliant at it. Can you talk us through a little bit about that, but also, actually just talk us through a little bit about that first now I'll come to my second question afterwards.

 

28:58

Okay, yeah, I realised when I when I was preparing my very first Iron Man that the that I needed to incorporate yoga, I had already started I had already done some yoga, but then just at that moment, I had met a new yoga teacher who really made me enjoy yoga even more, especially because I could really through her explanations understand, you know, all these these you know, this muscle is doing this, oh, I feel this muscle now because I did that and so I really started to know my body even better, and I knew how to relax it and and relax the muscles and and heal them myself. And I realised that I needed that in order to recuperate from the long and hard training session. And then something else really, really helped me with she this teacher with all So make us do breathing exercises. And as I as I said before, I'm not the best swimmer and I was always struggling with the breathing or being out of breath and not enough air to keep on swimming and, and doing those breathing exercises really helped me trust my my lungs, knowing that I have enough hair, I can do that I can be under the water for a few seconds even because if someone you know, when you start in the swim in the lake, in a race you may have you may get hit, you may have punched also by others. And this was really for me a big big challenge and the breathing exercises helped me feel like safe and know that I can do it. Even if I'm I can read every three every five seconds. It's okay. So all these things and and, of course, I think them self confidence, knowing your body, knowing yourself through it through yoga, you know yourself so well that, especially when you stay in, in a posture for a certain time, which I do, it's the yoga I do is at practices that Hatha Yoga, you stay in this posture for for quite some time. It's sometimes very hard to let go and to, to totally let the muscle and then the whole nervous system really. And it's really again, in a moment in a race or in a moment during a very difficult effort that you can also you know, you can trust yourself. You can trust your buddy and you, you, you it's gonna work and it's great for the self confidence. In my eyes.

 

Catie Friend  31:54

I completely agree. I was at a daylong yoga festival in Verbeek last week. And I did a half a session which I have not done for a when we lived in London, I did have that and I loved it. And it as you say, taught me so much about breathing. It helped me when I was in labour both times. And I had sort of although I do meditation, and I've done yoga, since it had been a while since I had practised Hatha Yoga, and I just thought, Gosh, breathing is everything that breathing through the pain breathing through, you know, because as you say, you sit you stay in these positions for quite a long time. And it's painful, because you're stretching the fascia. And you're you have to, as you say, just let it go, breathe, breathe, and trust that what is happening is what's supposed to be happening. And it's so it's such a metaphor for sport for life for everything. And, and for dealing with children quite often.

 

32:56

weave in and out three times. Before you raise your voice

 

33:03

and

 

Catie Friend  33:04

I was wondering I had a couple of questions. Can you do have any examples of times when your sport and you're practising have this well being has maybe saved you as a bit of an exaggeration, but has helped you out of a dark place or a dark time?

 

33:22

No, no, I would say many times a negative again, go back to to my mom and I was really I would say when I was grieving her. I was going into depression it was January I was really down even though I had this goal of Zurich seven months later, but I I was down I just was crying a lot and I didn't really see the sense of Wait, why was I leaving? Why what you know really the purpose of life? I think I went running every day in winter and yeah, it gives me that that the good feeling that I needed just for every day. It was feeling good feeling feeling feeling alive. And it kept me on Yeah, above surface, let's say so definitely helped me a lot really sports is for me the way if I'm not well, I will go out and I will take an hour or two for myself and connect with myself connect with my buddy connect with nature connect with God. You know, whatever you believe that whatever you believe in, it's out there. And this is where I this is where I find it on him or her

 

Catie Friend  34:50

whatever the higher the source or the higher power whatever one chooses to believe in. I know you said obviously you find yourself a better mom and and so when you have Do you Think not just your your ability to be a better mom, but do you think your sporting abilities has helped them to be sort of more rounded human beings? It's easier to see when they're a little bit older, I guess.

 

35:14

Yeah. Inspiring for them to see their mom. Okay, they saw they, they participated in this Hawaii project. From the beginning, they, they thought in the beginning, while she's really bold, she was she's going for Hawaii and I'm not sure if everyone believed me. But then they saw how determined and how disciplined and how, what it what it what it did to me and that I could, so that this is definitely an inspiring mum of I think for them to see a mom who believes in her dreams and who goes for them. And, and again, I believe also that they saw how I was available. Even though I was tired that I was available for them. I was a good, let's say helper for their homework, you know and and so on and so on. And so it's I would say it was all positive for them. It was a positive experience from from A to Z and then we even went to Hawaii together so they so they show it all and I yeah, it is inspiring. It is definitely I saw in Jason who was that back then he was what 14 years old. I saw a shift. And even though I had not said much more than Jason stop being on your phone or stop playing computer all the time. Focus on your focus focus on his call. He knew that but I didn't want to fight about it so much. And I just said okay, it will happen and he it happened without me fighting more you know without me even saying anything anymore. And now he's really definitely he's doing great, it's cool and he found he found his passion, his own passion which is basketball. And he now ran with me and a 22 trail running into a mat and I couldn't believe my eyes how how fit he is and how fast he is. Fast he of course but on a 20 k it's not too bad for a 16 year old to be able to to run that pace. So it was it was and then it's something really above all it's to share this with my son and all my children to be able to share my passion of sports with my children and and run now for the first time with one of them a trail was absolutely beautiful.

 

Catie Friend  37:56

It is the dream both my husband my husband, I think actually you are a female version of my husband all the things you've said so so like him the Excel spreadsheets that which race would be the easiest to qualify and what would you know so funny, but he you know he grew up very sporty, whereas I didn't but I have just seen so many benefits of raising sporty children in a sporty family and in 2017 he and I ran of multistage ultra marathon together very different ends of the pack I may add but we still shared the experience together and we both came back saying how incredible it would be when the kids are big to be able to take them off to do something like that you know to go abroad or even you know here at home We're so lucky. And you know when I saw the pictures of you doing that with your son I was just thought oh I can't wait because mine is still a little bit young. But just amazing. Amazing Amazing.

 

38:57

And you know that I was supposed to do that we did last year this one this year was blessed with my 20 year old and with my boyfriend with my companion and while it was cancelled but now my my really my and I had already that vision let's talk about vision again is to do the long run the long path who is with blaze with the 20 year old and Jason as a three the three of our amazing and because Jason has has the technical and the Alpine Alpine know how more than the than the knee and my other son. He's a he's doing also something amazing with his dad. He's quite he wants to climb all the 4000 metre mountain in Switzerland. So it's a 48 of them before he's 20 years old. And wow already is already climbed. 27 or two 28 of them, and he's just turning 17 in a month. And so he's got the the knowledge, you know, the mountain knowledge. And when you need, as you know, you need that for us for a race like that. And so that's my vision,

 

Catie Friend  40:17

I think, I think your family and my family were separated at birth, my husband is on a mission to do exactly that. And he's trying to do it before he's 60. I suspect he'll manage it in the next few years, because I think he's at about 30, something like that. That's where he is today actually climbing this record. So that's incredible. It is the most extraordinary experience. And I mean, it was amazing enough for me to do it with two incredible girlfriends. I cannot imagine what it would be like to do it with your kids. It's just must be it would be very, very special.

 

40:47

Yeah. That's the vision.

 

Catie Friend  40:49

Yeah, that's incredible. Well, then it will happen. Yeah, if that's the vision. And a so thank you so much for joining me, I have I cannot tell you how much of an absolute joy has been chatting to you today. Tell us how we can get hold of your book iron mum?

 

41:07

Where can we? Where can we find you? It's not available in French in the library? Are you in the French part of Switzerland in any every Pio? It's also available in on my website, I run a new emma.ch and the English and German versions are there going to be available very soon, I will put it on my website to begin with rN mn.ch. And then it should be also available on them as a numeric so digital, that I will also mention on my website or under social media as soon as it's ready.

 

Catie Friend  41:54

Fabulous. And we can follow you on Instagram on iron mum.ch. Is that right?

 

41:59

That's correct. And also Facebook. I run them

 

Catie Friend  42:02

indeed Facebook and Instagram. And last question What is next? What's the apart from the pet toy, which is a couple of years away? What's the next

 

42:12

year I really have no plans now for next year. It's mostly now inspiring other people having the feedback from my readers and and who knows being able to accompany some of them in their own journey on their journey to well being sports to sports, in doing sports, triathlon, whatever, that's my

 

Catie Friend  42:38

because you are you're no coaching as well which

 

42:41

I am exactly I am and it's it's really beautiful. Now that's a new dimension that, you know, people readers come to me and say why I would love to you to help me. For example, the last one was the recent one was a woman who, who said, I would like you to come with me in the lake. And I would like you to swim with me because I'm afraid of swimming in the lake. And because I had this I was struggling myself. And I talked about it in the book and she she saw it in me that the potential of that I could really help her overcome her fears and of of the lake of not seeing what you what is under your feet. And yeah.

 

Catie Friend  43:29

Amazing. Well, Kane, thank you again, so much for your time. I'm so grateful. It has been an absolute pleasure. I loved love to the book. Again, I'll say it's iron mom, and you can find it on iron mom.ch and wish you all the best with your endeavours, I am very sure that our paths will cross again in the near future.

 

43:50

Merci beaucoup Katie, thank you so much for your interview and your time and I look forward to any anything. Show up. Thank you so much. Okay, take care. Thank you. Bye Bye.”