Chatting to Baz Moffat

Warning: some subjects may be a little adult for very young listeners. It’s all important information but adults should decide how much they want to explain to their kids depending on their age.

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This is a podcast for everyone! If you are a woman in sport, a man or a woman who trains women and girls and/or if you have daughters, you should listen to this. It’s mind blowing and life changing, I promise you.

Baz Moffat began rowing at the age of 21 to meet new friends. Four years later she was sitting on the start line of the GB trials. She later made the Women’s 8 and won a medal at the 2007 World Championships.

Her greatest weapon in sport was probably her mind-over-matter approach, a performance mentality which got her into the boat, onto the team and up on the podium. It pushed her body to do things nobody believed it could or should. She, by her own admission, naively assumed this mentality was an asset that would help her in life.

When she retired from pro sport she was handed a fairly brutal reality check.  In ‘normal’ life, she still believed her best tool was the ‘eyes-on-the-prize’, and ‘just-push-through’ approach. But you can’t master life like that and her body began to rebel.

She had a sudden realisation that it wasn’t all about body; she needed to broaden her mind too. She found she had to harmonise mind and body, instead of seeing one as master of the other.

As she began to see life through a new lens, the outputs were so significant she began to introduce new thinking and techniques into her coaching work.

In this conversation, we discuss her sporting background, her time in the GB Rowing Squad, her brutal first labour and birth, followed by therapy and her empowered life changing second birth.

Then we talk about journey into being a pelvic floor specialist that led her to her newest iteration as co-founder of The Well HQ with Dr Emma Ross and Dr Bella Smith and their absolute mission in life to change the way that women stay healthy, get involved and stay in sport and how everyone involved in a woman’s sporting life – from herself to her dad to her coach and the schools and clubs she belongs to – can make it the glorious, empowering journey it’s supposed to be.

We talk about sports bras, periods, menopause, science, sporting environments and SO MUCH MORE!!

The Well HQ founders are writing a book called “Train Like a Woman” and while it has no release date yet, you can sign up on their website for updates as to when that is likely to happen.

https://www.thewell-hq.com/ They run regular webinars, some free, some paid. They have courses for both interested women and for coaches and trainers.

Don’t forget to listen in to the end for this week’s #challengecatie (which is actually a life long challenge – can you guess what it is?)

Instagram        @thewell_hq

Twitter            @thewellhq

Facebook        https://www.facebook.com/thewellhqonline

LinkedIn          @thewellhq

Baz’s accounts:

http://www.bazmoffat.com/

Instagram        @bazmoffatstrongtothecore

Twitter            @bazmoffat

Facebook        @BazMoffatStrongtotheCore 

LinkedIn          http://linkedin.com/in/baz-moffat-55b61a11

 

Transcript

Please note that transcripts are automatically generated by artificial intelligence so may not be 100% accurate.

SPEAKERS

Baz Moffat, Catie Friend

 

Catie Friend  00:02

Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries and how they keep healthy, happy. unsane. Boss Moffitt is a former Great Britain roar a bronze medalist in the 2007 world championships, a mother of two former personal trainer and a specialist in pelvic floor health, as well as that she's recently teamed up with Dr. Emma Ross and Dr. Bella Smith to create the well, HQ. And in this conversation, we talk about everything that is women specific training, and you might have an idea of what you think this conversation is going to sound like. But a lot of it was absolutely not the conversation I thought I was going to have with her. It's brilliant. So interesting. So fun. We talk about everything from sport at school, to birth stories, to pelvic floor via menopause, sports bras periods, how the men in our lives can support women, as much as women can support themselves. It's just so so vital. If you are a woman who trains or does sport, if you are a man, or a woman who trains or coaches, girls or women, or if you have daughters, this is a must listen, I cannot overstate how important the work is that these three women are doing as being one of them. And I just love this conversation. So so much. I hope you enjoy. Hi, Bob. Thanks for joining me today. How are you? I'm really well thank you. Awesome. No, I am always excited to speak to my guests genuine, actual excitement. But today I'm particularly excited because I have been caught up in everything that you've been doing with the well HQ with Dr. Emma Ross and Dr. Bella Smith. And we're gonna come on to that because it's just, it's completely blown my mind as I'm sure it has for a lot of people, which as we'll also come on to it shouldn't have been.

 

Baz Moffat  02:24

What I want to just do a little bit of background on you because you are, amongst other things, a former GB rowing squad for our medal winner World Champion medal winner. Yeah, it feels like a very long time ago now I even when I was growing on the telly, I'm like how did I do that? But yes, back in the day, I was one of those rare lists and that you always had a quite a sporty childhood I think us I've read that you were sort of A for effort type was kind of always battling through. I tried so hard as for I absolutely loved it. I didn't come from a sporty family at all. But for me, sport was my leveller like I really, as a child, I didn't really feel like I fit it in anywhere. Do you know I kind of like fell out but definitely wasn't in the call group at school. But I felt that sport was the place where I could really just truly be me. And so I absolutely adored it. And from a really young age, you know, I was obsessed with the Commonwealth Games and the you know, and the Olympics and college active Sarika node and lympha Christi, that kind of era and they were just all so inspirational. I've always had this dream of being an international athlete, how did you go from sort of, you know, you by your own admission, not being, you know, one of the best of the fastest, really like putting yourself to because, you know, I'm not a rower, but my dad stroke the Cambridge blue boat back in the day. So I know from just from the stories that that's a brutally hard sport, like, I mean, all sport is hard. But that's a it was not it was not predictable that that's, you know, like, I think that if you were doing any talent ID programme, I don't think I'd have qualified for any of them whatsoever. And it was more I didn't start, I'd love sport, as I said, my entire life. So I've done everything, you know, every single school team, I just was always doing sport. And then I decided that that that international ship had sailed as it were, and you know, when you're 21, and you think, Oh my god, I'm so old now I really need to get used to get serious now but as and you need to, you know, sort of decide what you're going to do. So I then went down the corporate route and you know, sort of doing graduate jobs. And I just hated them. I was so disillusioned by them and I couldn't quite believe that this was what life would be. It was like is this honestly like what I've been working so you working hard at school for when and how the university for is I cannot see this being my life. So it wasn't as though I I decided, Okay, I want to be an international athlete. Now. It was more like, you know, I just I just went back into sport and I chose rowing because it wasn't going to be rowing on that board. It was kind of I want the rowing got it because it was outside it would that was literally it was like, I just wanted to be part of a team. And like, I want to learn something new, I want to do something totally different. And I just kind of just loved it and hate it. And I'd love growing more and hated work more, it just became more apparent that maybe I could give it a go. And I just thought, you know what, I've got absolutely nothing to lose. If I take what I decided to do was take a gap year what I consider a gap year, kind of at the age of 24. And I went over to Australia, and I trade with an amazing squad over there. And I just decided, right, I'm gonna throw everything into this. And if it's a total disaster, no one knows. Because I'm under the radar. No one in the UK knows I'm doing this or like, this is the plan. So I can go over there, I can mess up, I can fail, I can have a completely disastrous experience. But also, there's a real freedom to that, you know, I can just see how good can I be. And I kind of the Australian system was so incredible. I've got amazing opportunities that have been I, when I came back to trial in the UK, I was better than I thought I was. And it just kind of was a no brainer to really go for the squad.

 

Catie Friend  06:11

Because it's quite incredible that you say, you know, you had, you said what 21 I thought my life was over. But that's quite late to take up a sport especially like rowing because there's a lot of technique that people learn super early on, it's a bit like skiing, if you learn early, you've got the kind of innate

 

Baz Moffat  06:27

i wasn't technically very good people with a lot better technique. I was a rough diamonds when it hit the technical side. But I had absolute determination. And I and I made sure that like the areas where I could be better. I nailed all the peripheral stuff, you know, like I was like, obsessed with nutrition obsessed with recovery. Obsessed with psychology, I got so into the psychology of team and like how to get the best out of myself. But how I realised quite quickly that if I'm in a boat, I have to make sure that everyone in that boat is like on form. So I have to work out like how to get the best out of that team. Because otherwise I am not going to be a good member too. I kind of thought I I was technically good enough, I was physiologically good enough, but like on the edge of both of those things, not like outstanding at all, like good, but not amazing. So I've just had to make the most of everything else. Yeah, because you came you came to us with a degree a first class degree, I hasten to add in sports science. Also, with that background of always playing sport your whole life. You know, so there, I'm super interested to hear that all that stuff that people consider, as you say peripheral stuff had made such a huge impact or addition to what you were attempting to do. Because I just knew that I was, you know, like you said, there were girls who've done it at school, the big girls that were doing it for years. And their technique was amazing. It was just it was just their muscle memory was outstanding. And the first thing of coach said to me was like hold your knees, which is a classic, you know, rowing term, I just coded these. And it was the last thing they said to me when I retired, it was something that I knew that technically, regardless of the fact that I was working, working working at it, there were other areas which I could really exploit. And those are just, you know, you go to the areas where you know, you think you can make the biggest difference. So from there, you went on to win a medal at the World Championships. And then what kind of went on because there's a sort of a phase after that, where you, you know, you said that you, your mind over matter. You're sort of battering through working as hard as you could using all the sort of peripheral things. And then you said life changed a little bit when you had your kids and that didn't work anymore. Yeah. So I retired from sport in 2008. And I actually didn't get selected for Olympics. So the year before was 2007. And I was on the podium with the aid and we qualified the boat, but in rowing, you qualified boat, but you don't qualify the people.The boat was off to Beijing, and it was just it wasn't quite sure who was going to be in that boat. And unfortunately, I'd always be on the edge of the squad. I'd always been that late last week, more or less. And then in and in 2007 every single decision went my way by an absolute margin. And in 2008, every decision went against me by exactly the same margin and I was just pushing against the tide and it just was never going to work. So I didn't get selected. And I retired and then I kind of was 30 so I knew I had to find a partner if I'd haveto get my life back to where I want it to be. So I and then I got married and and got pregnant and and I just and I approached pregnancy because physically my body had never let me down so physically, whatever I asked my body to do it Not instantly, but if I applied myself then I could do pretty much anything. So after I retired from sport, I did some ultra marathons, I did some ridiculous swims, I, and I just kind of did it, you know, if I had to trade, but I did it and I just I just thought pregnancy is going to be the same. I just thought, well, I got pregnant quite easily. My pregnancy was fine. birth, women give birth all over the world. I am physically better than them. Honestly, I was so arrogant with what I'm physically better people tell me it's like a 2k rowing test, which is kind of a fitness test to do in between. So I'll just keep on pushing, because that's the approach that has worked for me. And, and it was just an absolute disaster. Like it was an absolute disaster. And, and it really, really, that birth experience had like, really long lasting impression on me. And I just couldn't believe how how hard it was and how the tools that I had relied on in the past just didn't just didn't work for me. And because I was alive, and my baby was alive. And I didn't have postnatal depression. No one cared like everyone was. And also, I didn't care. Like I didn't even mention it. I just knew that I felt awful. But I was like, well, no one seems bothered. So maybe this is just what life is like as a new mum. And then I got pregnant again really quickly. And then sort of five months. And I was I was petrified. I was genuinely petrified of having the how this baby was going to come out of me. And I remember talking to my midwife and saying, I just left Can you just tell me that I need to have a C section and that someone will just almost put me to sleep and then wake up and they'll be a baby. I just cannot there's nowhere and go through like what I've recently gone through. And she she was amazing. And she sat down with me. And she said, You need she was a rower actually, which really helped. So I knew she understood me. And that was, you know what my mentality was? She said, Look, let's, let's look at what happened with your body. And she said, but this is what happened. And this is why you reacted that way. I honestly think you'll be you're brilliant at giving birth. I'm like, how can you say that? How can you say it was the worst experience ever. And she said no. Like you, what you don't understand is that you have to give your body the environment in which it can truly perform and you didn't give it that environment. And she said that birth is not an emergency situation is not a situation, which needs to be adrenalized. Like you can't be pushing and pushing and pushing, especially if it's taken two days to get these babies baby out. And so it just made me stop and realise that actually, the hormones in our bodies are the best painkiller. And if you work with them, as opposed to against them, and working with them means tapping into your female energy is a hard thing to do when you're used to having quite a male approach to your energy and a male approach performance. And I kind of went with it. And I did it. And honestly, it was extraordinary. It was absolutely amazing. My second baby, like literally whoosh out of my body. And it was the most amazing physical thing I had ever done. And it was the moment that he came out. I was like, Oh my god, I get it, I get what what this flow state is I get what it is to truly connect to every single thing in your body and produce something amazing. And I just wish I'd had the confidence to do that. As an athlete, I just wish I'd had the confidence to kind of not just try to fit into a system but try and really tap into me, which I haven't really done to its full potential.

 

Catie Friend  13:37

Oh my gosh, there's so much there. I love a birth story. And so just before I go, I want to go on to that sort of flow state and, and, and really delve into all that stuff about understanding yourself as a woman and everything. But what just to sort of clarify what was it that was so awful about the first one you say you're pushing and pushing, like physically actually pushing or talk to me a little bit about what you mean?

 

Baz Moffat  14:04

Yeah, so it was it was was one of those unfortunate situations where I like my my waters had broken, but I hadn't I wasn't in labour. So often, my waters are broken on like a Wednesday afternoon. And then as if roll, if you haven't had your baby within 24 hours, then they need to induce you. And I haven't had my baby within 24 hours, but then they were busy. And so I just kind of got abandoned on this life on this random ward in this hospital where my contractions started, which was like 36 hours after my water had broken. And, and because I was on my I was totally on my own. And I had never, I think Yeah, one of these. This is why we're so passionate about the work that we do now is that that was the first time I had ever been exposed to any kind of birth experience. Like I had never seen a friend do it. I've never talked to people about it. No one had ever told me about it. And I was up on this word.in such pain, and it was because my baby was like the wrong way round. But people just was people were walking past and it felt like they were laughing at me and they weren't laughing at me. They were just smiling. But in that moment, I thought, they're laughing at me. And they were like, oh, you're not having your baby here. You need to get down on delivery sweet, but we haven't got space for you. So it was, and I am having my baby, like right now. But then I'll know, other people said you can't have it here. So it was and when you're in labour is so intense that you can't you can't advocate for yourself in that moment you are you're fully consumed by what's happening to your body. And I was in such pain and the contract instead of normally, when you go to any birthing class, they say, you have a contraction, and then you have this level, and it all comes off and you have this lovely time to relax. I have no time. It was like, there's a contraction. And then there was intense pain, and it was an attraction and there was intense pain. And so it was just unrelenting. And then they came up said, Would you like some paracetamol and I literally was literally screamed, and I was like, I just felt that I was totally misunderstood. No one knew what I was experiencing. And then by the time that I did get down, it was like, Oh, my God, how is this woman got to this day, it was just panic stations. And, and, you know, I then yeah, I was really motivated to go and help women after that experience. And, and I was the NHS are brilliant at keeping you alive. And they are brilliant at life and death situations. And I felt that although if I had to get into that place until they wouldn't listen to me, and unfortunately,there wasn't the capacity to care for me in a non emergency way. And that was just really, really unfortunate, because it massively affected me and I had to have quite a lot of therapy, which I didn't have I delay having because I didn't even realise it was okay to have that to process that experience. Well, I so much of what you said rings true for me. I was already had it the opposite way around. I had a really amazing birth first time. And so swanned into the second birth going well, I'm a total badass at this, and had almost exactly the same experience as you. And and I ended up with a C section because it was all just like suddenly the surgeon appeared and was like, How the hell has this left to this stage? And I wasn't even in the UK, but I for that one. But no, I totally get it. And it is traumatic. But he said to me, after they said to me, they wanted this baby. My baby had arrived. They were like, oh, did you have pain relief? I said no. And like, that was physically not possible. What you have just done? I'm like, Well, I is because I've done it. But I'm bust that. Yeah, it was horrendous.

 

Catie Friend  17:45

I feel I feel I feel for you, because induced labour is something I would never want to wish on anyone without certainly without pain relief. Anyway. So and then. So then you got into you got therapy, and you had this amazing midwife. And you realised as you said that, really when you get into your female energy, and you which is how I felt in my first birth, I just I felt so empowered. And it wasn't it didn't turn out as exactly in terms of where I wanted to have the baby, but I totally get what you mean that just that feeling of this is what my body was meant to do.

 

Baz Moffat  18:23

Yeah. And that was that was I wanted a home. But by the sounds of things, you know, might have been a similar situation. I didn't end up having one. But I didn't get into hospital until the end. Like I literally my baby arrived within 20 minutes of me arriving.But they were and they didn't care likeI was conscious about this is embarrassing. I'm making noises I don't want anyone to hear I was conscious of all that. I literally arrived at Chelsea and Westminster hospital at Karpov seven. And, and I was like, I was doing all the noises. And I was with it. And they and they said, Oh, you can't have your baby here. And like, this is not my problem. If you don't want me to have my baby in reception, then you get around to everything was hanging out.At this baby's coming, like I'm going with it if you want to get me into a room, and then you do that, but I honestly don't care. And that was just because I was so in tune with what was happening and where my baby was. And the amazing thing with that second birth was I pushed and I could feel and I could feel this baby coming that second birth. I couldn't feel any apart from ridiculous amounts of pain. I couldn't feel anything. And that's why that's where the disconnect was.

 

Catie Friend  19:33

Yeah, no, is it absolutely I had a similar thing when, when my son was born, he was my first and suddenly I got to the pushing stage. And I said, you know, I'd never had a baby before. I said, I think this baby's coming. Because I'd started to do the noise. And they were like, um, can you can you wait? Can you wait till 930 and I said What time is it? Nine o'clock. Eh no! Thinking, Surely you're the professional here, you know that when a woman starts making that noise, she's having an actual baby like, right now. And they're like, well, this isn't the right room and I was.like I'm having this baby right now. Anyway, so yes, I totally, I'm with you on many of those elements. So what? After you'd had your babies and you'd been through this therapy, and you thankfully got this view of Exactly, yeah, how your body was supposed It was designed to work? And what what did that apart from hopefully healing some of the trauma of the first birth and having two beautiful, healthy babies? What? What did that change for you going forward professionally and so on?

 

Baz Moffat  20:54

It, it made me want to go deeper with women. And it may so I'd been when I retired from rowing, I went into personal training, and I kind of enjoyed it. I had a very successful personal training business. But there was something missing. And after that second birth experience, I was like, I, I get now what, how we need to help women and we need to go deeper. And we need to help them connect with that with who they truly are. And that's when I started to kind of really get into the pelvic floor and the pelvic health side of things, primarily because of my birth experience. But then, because the pelvis, even though men have a pelvic floor, the pelvic floor is is, you know, fundamentally, you know, it's more important for women, because they're not the Dinos, they have babies, and they go through menopause, which those which men don't, and that's why we were more likely to have more susceptible to have issues with our pelvic health. And I just thought, you know, I was reading about it and talking with friends, I was like, this is a barrier, this is a massive barrier to women being active. And it's a massive barrier for women to potentially succeeding in sport as well. And I just thought I can, we can, I can help them with their fitness, but starting from something that's really fundamental to being a woman, and so I started just being a pelvic floor coach, and I would take a woman, you know, ultimately, what I wanted to do really was help them with their pelvic floor, and then help integrate their pelvic floor into their training programme, wherever that might be, and then hand them over back then all personal trainers have after their normal classes, or their or their sports programme, and not really stick with them for ages, because I kind of like to fix problems. So I was I would rather someone came to me and said, right, we are on this for six weeks or three months. And then that's the focus. And then we're off, as opposed to just working with someone, you know, week in week out on a normal sort of PT scenario. That's what I did. After Well, I'm not I'm doing less than that I'm doing much more talks and all that kind of jazz, but like that's what I did for the last six years. So my aim was that I want to do this for six years until my my youngest gets into reception. He started reception in September. And I just knew that at that point, I wanted to be in a position where I could do something bigger, and I had no real. There wasn't like a linear progression. I just had this belief that when you know when Cooper's at school, I want to be in a place where I can really take this work into a much bigger space and meet and reach a much bigger audience. And it all just kind of just kind of happen. But but it did. AndI just I just spent six years learning my craft and working with all different types of women. And the more I got into it, I am saying the same things over and over and over again. And, you know, I work with women, you know, recently who suffered with sexual abuse, I worked with young athletes, I worked with lots of pregnant women, obviously, postnatal women, lots of women who had gynaecological surgeries. And there are people like that. I'm not the only one doing this. There are plenty of people did this, but there's not that many. And there's not that many that can kind of take this really holistic approach to it. And also give women the belief and be positive and say, right, this is where we're starting. It's 100% of that where you want to be, but I've got a plan to get you into a better into a better place.

 

Catie Friend  24:17

And you said what you said you're saying the same things. What are those same things

 

Baz Moffat  24:22

 that you're saying that you constipated?Literally, honestly, I have that conversation. All the time with we made like about clothes debated the constipation chat. And that was a big that was like just a classic, you're more likely to be constipated. But because you're a woman, and as you age, you are more likely to get constipated. But it's also throughout your menstrual cycle. There might be times when you are more constipated because because of progesterone, like it's it slows down your digestion. So it is less than it is when progestogen is low, your digestion is slower thanWater is taken out of your soul as it's travelling around your gut. But what it means is that if you think of your pelvis, you've got your bladder, your bowel at the back, and you've got your womb, your uterus in the middle and your bladder at the front. If you are constipated, it essentially means a stool in your bowel, which you haven't excrete it is taking up space within your pelvis. So it's more likely that you will have you will, you will leak urine because you're kind of like pressing on that bladder. The first reason and the second reason is if you're constipated, and we've all been constipated at some point in our life, you know that you have to strain to excrete. And that puts huge amounts of pressure on the pelvic floor. Oh, it stretches the pelvic floor, that beyond where it should be going. So if you're chronically in that state is not great. And it also massively increases your risk of prolapse. And it's not. So like, essentially, anyone comes to me with pelvic floor issue. It's bowels, first of all right.

 

Catie Friend  25:54

Wow. Who knew? Exactly. Well, you obviously. And so you're saying that there are different times that pelvic floor becomes an issue? You know, it can't be all the time. But you know, one of the obvious ones that me as a mum I think of is, well, you know, I can't do very much skipping or jumping on a trampoline. Yeah, babies, even though one of them came out the sunroof, it's still affected, and what are the other but then you've also mentioned that, or I've read that it's, it can be affected post menopause as well. During enough menopause. What happens then just you know, asking for a friend.

 

Baz Moffat  26:33

Yeah. So for medicals you're eating, you know, your ovaries stop producing oestrogen, and each one is responsible for about 400 things in your body. And we have set receptors all over our body for each region. And if you haven't got Asia in your system, then those cells don't work so well. And so muscles rely on each other for their strength and their tone. And so when patients gone, then that's why you know, we lose muscle strength and muscle tone, and the pelvic floor is a muscle, and therefore,it just reduces in its strength and also the vaginal tissue. It loves oestrogen. So it to get plumpness. And it's like lubrication. It relies on having less vision in the system. So that's why metaphors like, regardless of whether women have had babies or not, is often a really tough time in terms of their pelvic health.

 

Catie Friend  27:21

Wow. So yeah.Mass is a huge subject. And I know that's kind of your area of expertise, as we've just discussed. But you've now linked up with Emma and Bella to put together the well now I came across it, I think because I heard Emma speaking on Laura Penhaul and Maek Beaumont's Endurance podcast. Yes. And then Iinterviewed Laura, and you know, so all sorts of connections. And I watched your very first webinar. Just absolutely blown away. Now I am an educated sporty woman in my late 40s with a read, you know, I've had a bit had two rounds of IVF I've had two babies. So I've, you know, I felt like I was pretty familiar with my own body. And, and I just sat there going, Oh, my God. Um, you know, and that's someone with that kind of background and talk to me like, I don't even know where to start. But all the things that you talked about, you know, periods and breasts and pregnancy and perimenopause, and menopause, and all the things. Talk to me about what has given you the three of you this, like, impetus to really start this movement is a movement.

 

Baz Moffat  28:40

You're absolutely right. It's a total movement. It's what we describe as a revolution. Because we what was given us the impetus was that no one was doing it. And we couldn't quite believe that no one was doing it. And we're like, how is no one doing this, though, I spent my whole life in elite sport, talking about marginal gains and talking about how can we, you know, get like point 01 second of this time, but you know, having the right feathers in our pillows, at nighttime, a little better quality sleep. And no one talked to me ever about my menstrual cycle. And they will talk to me about my sports bra, which we know now from the research is not is not a marginal gain. It's like massive, massive impact. And also, if you flip that to the other end of the spectrum, in terms of participation, like women are not participating in Sport and Exercise, because the environment is not a place where they feel welcome or where they feel they truly belong. So we put there was also you know, I think there was a huge amount of momentum now gathering in this space. But if we look back 18 months, when we started thinking about this, there was information coming out around gender data gaps, I think, you know, Caroline criado, Perez had written that amazing book called invisible women.

 

Catie Friend  29:52

Oh, yes, which I have and haven't read yet.

 

Baz Moffat  29:55

You must and it's kind of it started off there's kind of a bit of a movement aroundOh, this outrage, you know, around Oh my god, yo, did you know that there's no female statues in Westminster? Did you know that the transport systems are totally designed for men, and it just, it just created is like, and then there's another book written about how female How about medicine about how medicine is not designed for females and how, you know, the meds by drugs are tested on male rats and male sales and males. As all this stuff started coming out, and, and no one was providing a solution, everyone was kind of like looking at the problem and identify the problem. And that was really, really important work. But we were like, Oh my god, you know what, like, we know enough lay, there was enough of an evidence base to create a solution. Were also three women who have lived experiences of being women. And also the three of us have worked with 1000s of women between us helping them and making a difference. And so we thought, you know what, we can do this, we can put something together and be part of the solution. And what was amazing was that we recently did a webinar. And it was full of sports coaches, and PE teachers and people that worked like a national governing body level. And they were all like, Oh, my God, we have just accepted this, we have accepted, let's go through sport, women get paid less. But there's less of a progression. And you have just given us about 20 tools to use that we can implement straightaway and like, and that's what motivated us because we knew we could do it, we knew there was an absolutely brilliant combination of having an academic doctor and medical doctor and myself being you know, having been an athlete and being a coach, there was this amazing combination of knowledge and experience, but fundamentally believe that health and performance can sit alongside each other and, and that has never, that there is so much work to be done in that field. But that's what we fundamentally believe that you cannot train a woman in a way that destroyed her, whether that's mentally, physically, emotionally, so that the rest of her life is impacted by those two years of hyping up two or three years of being at the top of her game. A woman's health must be taken into consideration and and coaches and sports have to start taking responsibility for that.

 

Catie Friend  32:12

Why?I know the answer to this, because I've heard it, but and perhaps you can explain why there has been no studies, you know, on female athletes.

 

Baz Moffat  32:23

Yeah. So 4% of sports science research has exclusively done on women. And I think that 60% of that is deemed to be really bad quality. So the amount of information is really, really low. It's not so I studied sport, science degree and master's level. And it's and women are seen as too complicated because of our hormonal profile. So men have hormones, but they don't have a monthly cycles. They don't they fluctuate every day. So their cortisol and testosterone levels, and, you know, whatever else will will fluctuate quite predictably throughout the day, whereas women have these monthly rhythms and cycles. And also, we know that 50% of athletes are on hormonal contraception as well. So it's just six, if you think about, you can just gather a group of men and do the same kind of research on them. Actually, you need to, you need to factor in, like, what stage of the cycle a woman is, at what whether she's on hormonal contraception or not. And it's just seen as too complicated. I remember having conversations, like, you know, with my lecturers and advisors that are there, we just don't do women.But they do complex, and it will just apply, we'll apply what we learned from men to women. And it's just never and that's Yeah, which is, and it's only, it's only just recently where the impact that physiology has, is being recognised and the impact it has on the potential strength gains and their fitness and all that is starting to be recognised and it and it's, you know, something has happened sort of over the last 4 or five years, really.

 

Catie Friend  33:57

And that's nothing given how much research there's been on male athletes in the last however many 100 or so years. I mean, that's just like, that's like a nanosecond compared to today. And so what do you think, will? Or what is your hope your dream, your sort of absolute dream scenario that this sort of will mean for? Let's start with for elite athletes, first of all, yeah.

 

Baz Moffat  34:25

Well, you know, I, my dream is that health, a female that we can put the female back into being an athlete. So, up until now, it's all about being a quote, it's been all about equality, it's about being having equality of access to facilities, access to competition, the right you know, the same quality of hotels as the men, that kind of thing. But by doing by, by doing that, that the female part of being an athlete has been taken out. So I really feel that they the health of a female can be taken care of, in a way. That's not JoIt's seen as a weakness that women are able to talk about their menstrual cycle pain, talk about their fear of having endometriosis talk about the fact that when they're on the bike seat, their vulva really hurt and look at it and say, Oh my god, this is outrageous. They call it before they need surgery, that that is my dream for athletes. And also for sports. My dream is that they they start having education programmes that our teachers,we have, we are we are talking to top sports doctors in the world who don't know what we know. Right? This is, and that's because they have never ever been taught. We are talking to heads of PE in very, very sporty private girls schools, who have been women who have got who had themselves have gone to a male boarding school. And they have literally had one lesson in their in their year right about female biology. And now they are head of PT and a girl school at neither common. That is a common story that comes out. So at no point is anybody taught about female physiology, or anatomy it they talked about sex and talks about how not to get pregnant, but they're not talked about the hormones. And so we need to start Incorporated, we need to start you know, we have coaching qualifications, which are like how to coach children how to coach primary age children how to coach, teenagers, but not how to coach females going through puberty, how to keep you attend, yet, what can we do for your 10? girls? What What do elite x female athletes need? There is no there is no qualification, or education around this anywhere, the focus is bonkers. I was gonna ask you about, you know how, because men need to be part of this solution. 100%. And that was really, we spent so much time and so much money on our branding and our approach and our language around this because we know that most female athletes already most athlete coach relationships are female, male, so most females are coached by males. And so we have to make it really, really clear that we are about females, we are not just for females,everybody is welcome to come and learn from us. And actually, what has been brilliant is that we get emails every day from guys who are like, Oh, my God, thank you so much. I've been coaching girls, young girls for, you know, for 20 years, 30 years. And I know that I've needed to know other things, but there's been no appropriate way for me to learn information. I have not known who to go and ask about periods or breath or sports bras, because it's been it could well have been interpreted in the wrong way. You have now you you brought it to me in a way that I can access and they are just so grateful for that.

 

Catie Friend  37:48

And how do male coaches go about that? Because, you know, you hear such horror stories of Yeah, the you know, elite athletes, and, you know, just came out about the, you know, the gymnastics in the US, sort of thing that you hear all the time and how, how is it manageable?

 

Baz Moffat  38:05

It has to be, it has to be acknowledged that this is a tough conversation. And I think, you know, we have what we call like an act braver framework. And it's a framework that we've kind of put together to help coaches start having these conversations in a way that is totally appropriate. So for example, we know that 50% of school girls don't wear sports bras to do sport. So you can imagine if you go in as a young PE teacher and say, or an old PE teacher say right girls who wear a sports bra that will come across as a really inappropriate conversation. So you'd have to, you know, with that example, you'd write to the parent and you say, right, this is we are going to be talking about this for these reasons. Because these are the performance gains, there is this there's a school, there's a school bra, or these are the these are the brands that we recommend, and when I'm talking to your girls on Wednesday afternoon, and these are the points I'm going to cover, and then in that meeting, it will be right because I've written to your parents, they although we're going to be having this conversation, it might feel a bit weird, but this is where we're having it and it's kind of, you've got to bring it down to you've always got to say why you're having the conversation and why it's important. And then I think also making sure that you have signposting out to people that they might not be feel comfortable talking to you. But if they're a school nurses or a school counsellor is there ahead of year that can take that they can then go to and it's just making sure that you don't just go in and have a random conversation. Anyone that hormonal contraception, like you call it, you got to acknowledge that you are going to trigger that at some point you are going to trigger some stuff talking about these things. And therefore you have to have built in support around it.

 

Catie Friend  39:38

Yeah. It's fascinating. And I'm quite interested because the big thing on your one of the big things that Oh, keep seeing on your feed at the moment is about sports. Yes. And this extraordinary we seek I am feeling really bad because I'm sitting here in a terrible bra while I'm talking to you.And I knew whenever we get on this morning that I was going to talk to you aboutLike, this does not fit me properly. And I begin in very big trouble. But I think it's just not something has ever bothered me because I have this smaller breasted variety. Yeah, but I'm so I'm fascinated to hear, because I've always known that my girlfriends with big boobs have gone, oh, it's a nightmare, I can't run or I feel this or blah, blah, blah. But I'm fascinated to hear that it's important for all of us, regardless of the boob size.

 

Baz Moffat  40:26

I know it's because your breasts are just skin, there's nothing holding them on, you know, so they're kind of like so even the brilliant story that Dr. Ross always says tells us incredibly well, if you were stood on the start of a marathon and you hadn't your your clothes next to you, and the only difference was your bras and one of you had what you're wearing today. And one of you had a really good sports bra and wealth into sports bra, the person with a well fitting sports bra would finish a mile ahead of the person with the ill fitting sports bra. Now that is that doesn't that doesn't matter how big your boobs are, whether you're a B cup, or whether you're a D cup, whether you're an eight minute mile or a six minute mile, it doesn't, it makes no difference. It's the it's because our boobs move so much that it's the boobs move so much that it kind of really impacted our biomechanics, our stride length and how we breathe. And it's really important that we're, yeah, that were being that were being fitted properly. But again, we're talking with schools and quite a lot of private schools who are like, Oh my God, we don't even have a sports bra as part of our kids. Like it's not. And when I was growing, we didn't have sports bras, and it wasn't World Championships, it was that we got them. But we were made to feel the bestsports bra. And it wasn't a sports bra, it was a quarter. And if you had just had to put two on do you know, it's like, the amount of technology that goes into like, you know, the boats and the blades and the, you know, the warm ups and everything. And no one was looking at our bras and they are now just but it's Yeah, it's crazy.

 

Catie Friend  42:02

So how would one go about finding the right size and for one's build?

 

Baz Moffat  42:08

Yeah, so there are there are there's a brilliant research group in Portsmouth so if you're like what a throw everything at it, and you've got, you know, you'd go and have a test or you'd go on a treadmill, and they try with different browsers. And they, they, you know, they put electrodes on you to see how much your boobs are moving that kind of an elite athlete kind of thing. For the rest of us. There are some you know, there are some brilliant brands now which have brought, you know, we've had research departments. And so you want to make sure most if you're doing high impact sport, you need a bra as opposed to a crop tops and you need something that kind of compartmentalises both of your boobs, so it's kind of just like having one Wait, it needs to you need to have been, yeah, like a proper sports bra. And it needs to be fitted. Well, I think that theyou know that there are that shock absorber sweaty Betty, there'll be more andmore name, but they they all have brought research departments and I think not connected. So not that bad either. I think they kind of like do it as well. But making sure you're having that high impact in a bra a proper bra fit as opposed to a small, medium large.

 

Catie Friend  43:12

Yes, yes. Because the thing is, despite the fact that you know, I'm not don't have big boobs, I'm I'm nearly six feet tall. And big. So you know, some people always say, oh, you'd be a small and I'm like, Well, no, I'm not. Because I'm quite broad. And so it's always that. Yeah, I've never Yeah, never. I'm kind of aware immediately and research.For my marginal gains, are not Mars. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I one of the things I read on your website is that this quote that really struck me and it's something that we I spoke about right at the beginning, and it You said something, I'm sort of paraphrasing, but women shouldn't need to study how to be a woman, it should be already in our culture. Yeah, environment. So what can we do as women? You know, I'm a mom bringing up a daughter, sporty daughter, what can we do? And also, I'm bringing up a son, so you know, equally as important. How, what can we teach, I teach my daughter,

 

Baz Moffat  44:14

you need to talk about what you're going through that you need to talk about your men and we need to use the right language. Like, you know, my kids are quite small. They're five and six, don't sorry, yeah, they are 565 and six, forgot that. And I A few weeks ago, or even a couple of months ago, they asked me a question about sex or something or like you know, women's bits and men's bits and and I use really just rubbish language and I was so ashamed of myself I got bad if you can't use this right language. How on earth can you expect other people to so from that point on I was that right? I'm gonna whenever they ask me a question, I'm going to tell them as it is, and I am so now we use we use exactly the right terms and actually, they they are totally fine with it. They are totally fine with it.If I'm the one with the issue saying testicles and sperm and vagina and penis, but I'm the one that kind of like if it awkward, and I think that it's just, you know, if they say, Oh, what's that? And it's a tampon, you say, Oh, it's a tampon and you know, sometimes when we had when we had what's called a period every month and you don't have I just answer whatever question they have in a very black and white unemotional way, I don't say, Oh, it's a bit of, it's something special for mummies or like, and I think with daughters, it's, you know, when they get to eight and nine, it's making sure that you know, if you have a partner that they're involved to, and it's like that they know that you have a conversation about their periods and their menstrual cycles, and what might happen and what products you think they might want to consider to kind of have a little bag which they take everywhere with them. You know,your, your partner can do that, too, if they've got that. And we know that, that those relationships are really important when it comes to sport. But often when it gets to puberty, that it might be different one situation where maybe that girl goes off to a weekend event, starts a period is to embarrass the dads to get some sanitary products and spends a whole day running in and out of the toilet is stuffing our pants with lube. And then she'll be like, I'm not gonna and there's no way I'm going with my dad again. And but had that dad been able to say, oh, I've got them in the bag, or let's just make sure you know, do you need this? It just, it's just making sure that we normalise all the life stages and that, that we don't hide the fact that someone's had a hysterectomy or we don't hide the fact that someone's struggling postnatally that we talk about it and there's been not, they're not relying on I remember going to an amazing talk about sex education. And there was a porn, there's a lady that that was in into porn, but she was right, what's got your porn positive? Like she was kind of like she? Yeah, she was just part of the porn scene. Women, that porn. pornography is blamed for a lot of the issues that young people have with sex, it is not a poor man's problem. It's that they are not being educated anywhere else. So we have to take responsibility for educating our children so that they don't go online to find out what a vagina looks like, in which case is online and they say, Oh, is that there's no pubic hair, there's no, we have to have to smell nice. We need deodorant. If that's where they're getting their information from, then that is not right. We have to we have to be the people educating them about their bodies.

 

Catie Friend  47:25

And incredible, that's really powerful stuff. I've always been a bit of a believer in, you know, I'm not obviously using the right words, I guess. But I'm a big believer, you know, in normalising everything. And I had quite a good example of that growing up. So I was lucky. You know, we talk about everything in this house. And it's really important. It's really important. I couldn't agree more. Do you ever get overwhelmed because I read a lot of the stuff the stats that you put out on your your Instagram and the stuff on your website? And, and and I feel overwhelmed thinking, Oh, my god, there's so much that could be done that can be done that needs to be done. Like, are you? Do you ever get feelings of thinking, how are we ever going to get this done already? have you managed to break it down and you're thinking this is my plan? We're going to nail this.

 

Baz Moffat  48:17

And I think it's almost the opposite. Like we were writing a book at the moment, and there was an idea. We kind of like writing it together. And so in certain sections, some of the statistics are outrageous, like outrageous, but we're writing them in a very nonchalant way. And it's almost like we're desensitised to it. You know, we're desensitised. So I often say, This is incredible that you can't describe that and not acknowledge that this is incredible. And I, I don't get overwhelmed at all. I just see, I, I know that this is a 510 year plan like this, we we are literally at the start. And it's messy. And there's loads to do. But I'm like how excited like, women are doing so well. And it's phenomenal, like the where we're at. But we're there without any we haven't even touched the sides on the true potential of what we can achieve. So for me, I genuinely I'm not just saying this, I genuinely find it really exciting because I'm like if we can actually educate women, educate those who support them, provide facilities andfacilities that where women feel truly welcome. Like how amazing would that be?

 

Catie Friend  49:35

 Oh, it's absolutely extraordinary. And one of the things I came away from your webinar with and one of the reason I am literally instantly messaged you going please come andhave the genuine and sincere enthusiasm and excitement that I felt from all three of you. I mean, they just busting through that screen like you were sitting. Actually I was sitting in bed, soBut weird, you're sitting in bed with me. But yeah, you know, like you were actually I was there and I just thought, wow, this is something that they are truly genuinely enthusiastic about.

 

Baz Moffat  50:11

We are and, you know, there was that webinar that you did, there was 800 people on that webinar. And we did it four weeks later. And we have 900. And it's like, how is this, we've only been going since Janet, we're going to be going for like two and a bit months. And we're already generating this interest and we are talking, you know, the business side of it will come right out, you know, that will come but they the interest and the impact. And the way we have got into that the top level having conversations, and they the top, the people we have we talked to within sports, many times say almost that they feel it's a can of worms and were described, they describe our work as a can of worms. And they say we don't want to open that can of worms. And we'll just have to sit there and take a breath and just almost wait for them to realise what they've just said before we actually like go back at them. But this is why we are playing the long game. We know this is gonna take ages, but we're ready we are we're here. We're not we're not in a rush. We're not in a rush. It's, it's the right is 100% the right thing to do, but it has to happen. And we know that the three of us and everyone that works with us and supports us is like, you know, is a really, really strong group to help make this happen.

 

Catie Friend  51:20

And how are you? What do you have plans. Because easy for me, I have internet access, I have, you know, resources. And you know, as I say, a good relationship with my own body and sport and so on. This must be very, sort of even more challenging to get to people, women, specifically without necessarily the advantages that I have. So in marginalised areas of society,

 

Baz Moffat  51:50

totally, and that is very much on our radar, and very much, you know, we also we are three white middle class heterosexual women. And so we kind of got the, that's the lens that we see this world through. So we are really, really aware of that. And it's something that we are constantly working on. And it's the I think that the work that we're doing in schools specifically, although the money will probably come from independent, it's very much being developed, so that it will support the state system too. And we can't, we can't fix all women, but it's very much like isn't that this is not just us going out there fixing the people that can afford to work with us or, or afford to kind of like spend money on themselves. It's very much part of our business model. But you know, we've got to have the money coming in so that we can then do the do the charitable work as well.

 

Catie Friend  52:40

And so you've mentioned briefly a book Tell us about that

 

Baz Moffat  52:43

IT was a bit of a journey.We've been at Dr. Emma Ross, who we talked about is very, very clever.To say so we we've gone along, and we we've gone along the self publishing route, but we're now kind of starting to think well, maybe we should go traditional publishing. So we're just starting to explore that route. And hopefully, in the next few weeks, we'll be able to kind of like share some more news on that. But it's there. There is a book and it is our like, we're just it's our life's work, it's kind of like everything that we feel every woman should should know about their bodies, and so that they can, that the information isn't out there and is where we feel we sit is where between academia and kind of influenced us. So we have, you know, you have all the academics, who are very, very clever, and all the doctors, they're not so great always at communicating their message in an accessible way. You know, that. And then you've got the employees who kind of come from a sort of an individual perspective about how they are coping with their lives and what's going on. So we kind of like got this book that is trying to provide an evidence based approach, but also in a really real way with loads of stories and loads of practical advice and loads the top tech so it's kind of a really accessible way to access it. There will be a book I cannot tell you when it's going to be coming out. But it's written it's just a case of working out the best way to get out there

 

Catie Friend  54:09

and social media Where can we find you

 

Baz Moffat  54:12

or at the well hashtag that the well, HQ. So we're on we're on Instagram, we're on Twitter, we're on Facebook, and we're on LinkedIn and so yeah, so and we're pretty active on all on all those platforms and well I did clubhouse if you don't clubhouse Yeah, totally. Do you love clubhouse Do you? Oh my god it petrified me but I have so many people that Cobra has come on prep has been dabbling. I mean, we aren't there just yet but we might be doubling the power of this patch bothers me but it's not the head around it.

 

Catie Friend  54:43

And then there's the obviously the website and I'll put all of this in the show notes. So that's great. No challenge Katie What have you got for me bass

 

Baz Moffat  54:51

pelvic floor exercises. Do you do them?

 

Catie Friend  54:54

Not really.

 

Baz Moffat  54:55

Right. So every single woman needs to do a pelvic floor exercises. Even If you don't have any issues, but because it said your late 40s, you are going to be perimenopause or menopause or at some stage relatively soon. So we need to get you ahead of the curve, right. So what I want you to do is if you haven't already got it on your phone, download the NHS squeezy app, which will cost you three pounds, actually, are you.So you need to do it. So you need to then do it every single day. So you need to do your 10 proper exercises, but you turn them on exercises your attentional exercises, once a day, every day, and after 10 days, you will start to feel it's easier. But and the best top tip from me is that you will never feel like doing them you work out well. What should I do? Now? I know.It's not like that. So you have to try and say, okay, just make it a habit so that you don't have to think about it. So we don't, I don't want you to kind of increase your mental load by having to think when am I going to do these because you then start presenting them. And so do them at a time, which is, you know, whether it's part of your exercise routine, or B, I often do them. When I come into my office, I sit down. I put my 3d app on, and I just do them then for three minutes. It's almost like the first thing I do before I start work.

 

Catie Friend  56:11

Ah, good. Yes. That's always the key to starting a habit, isn't it to attach it to something else? Yes. Yes. Awesome. You know, because I did do it for a while.

 

Baz Moffat  56:20

And then yeah, you need to honestly you need to get back on it because you only lived half your life, right? So you need this pelvic floor to last year. Because if you if you fast forward 30 40 years, your continence is your independence and it relies reliant on your pelvic floor strength.

 

Catie Friend  56:36

Oh, that's a good, that's a scared me into it.

 

Baz Moffat  56:39

I will check. I'll check in with you to make sure you're doing this.

 

Catie Friend  56:42

You can check on check on my skipping exercises. Brilliant Baz, thank you so much. That was absolutely just even more fascinating than I thought it would be.For your time really, so important for all of us, as you say not just for women, but for our men folk to understand and be able to support as well.

 

Baz Moffat  57:04

Thank you so much for having me.

 

57:12

Thanks for joining me. I'll be back next week with another incredible episode of chatting to a friend. In the meantime, please give us a follow on Instagram chatting to a friend for all the latest news. Bye bye”

Chatting to Lucy Shepherd

Photo 18-09-2019, 10 59 27.jpg

In the 4th episode I am chatting to Lucy Shepherd, professional explorer and adventurer. Can you imagine that was your job title?

At only 28 years old, she has been at this for a decade and in that time has been on expedition from the Arctic to the Amazon on foot, on skis and always in extreme conditions.

Obviously, the chat centres around adventuring and sticky, near death situations and how to survive for two weeks on the side of a mountain in a snowstorm (by keeping busy, is the answer!)

We also touch on, however, how to cope with post-expedition blues, how the world views a young woman who has decided to make this her career and how she feels about the future of our planet that she cares so deeply about.

A funny, insightful and enthusiastic chat with some deeper messages for us all about how to bring a sense of pride and achievement into your life on a daily basis.

At 23, Lucy was made a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and is currently the youngest board member on the board of the Scientific Exploration Society, both titles she holds with great pride.

You can find more about Lucy on her website www.lucyshepherd.net, including information on how to go on expedition with her to the Arctic in 2021.

You can also follow her on Instagram on @lucysheps

 

Transcript

Please note that transcripts are automatically generated by articifical intelligence and may not be 100% accurate.

SPEAKERS

Catie Friend, Lucy Shepherd

 

Catie Friend  00:02 In the fourth episode, I'm chatting to Lucy Shepherd, professional explorer and adventure. Can you even imagine that that was your job title. So cool. at only 28 years old. She has been at this for a decade and in that time has been on expedition from the Arctic to the Amazon, on food on skis. And always, in extreme conditions have funny, insightful and enthusiastic chat with some deeper messages for us all about how to bring a sense of pride and achievement into your daily life. At 23. Lucy was made a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and is currently the youngest board member of the scientific exploration society, both titles she holds with great pride. Hi, Lucy, thanks for joining me today.

 

Lucy Shepherd  02:38

Hi, thank you very much for having me.

 

Catie Friend  02:39

It's very exciting to have you on I'm just been reading your website and it's it's so exciting. It's just like a girls on adventure list of amazing places and things to do around the world.

 

Lucy Shepherd  02:51

Ya know, I like to I definitely like to get around.

 

Catie Friend  02:54

And so as I said in my intro, 28 years old, but already a decade of exploring and adventuring under your belt. Can you give us well, I'm going to do a quick rundown of what I have understood the Arctic Alps, Norway, Bolivia, the Amazon, Iceland, Russia, Alaska, I'm sure there are more. But you know, so lots of different types of adventure. So ski mountaineering, cross country skiing, tracking, even adventure racing, which is a whole myriad of adventures in itself. Could you give me your top three, and why they were so exciting.

 

Lucy Shepherd  03:30

I'll give it a go. The ones that come to mind, I mean, the most recent expedition, luckily, I managed in 2020 to get away. At the start of this year, I did a big Trek and traverse across a part of the Amazon rainforest. And it was just me and five other Amerindian guys. And it was just such a special expedition for many reasons. One of the way nothing like that had been done before the dynamic between myself and the Amerindians was very, very special. And the jungle was always somewhere that I never found very well, no one finds it comfortable. But I out of all the sort of disciplines and areas and environments, I always found it quite intimidating. But this time, I felt like you know, I'd cracked it. And now I can't wait to get back to the jungle. And that sort of opened up, you know, endless possibilities now. So that was a very, very, very good expedition. And also one that I thought was going to be quite a small adventure last year. Ski mountain aired across the high Sierras and it was just myself, my climbing partner and boyfriend Tim, and also one of our very good friends who we climbed Denali with Matt. And we originally saw it was going to be sort of a short you know, less than a week, adventure skiing these beautiful mountains climbing up so the straightforward just east west, and it was anything but it was so treacherous, treacherous. There was so many things that came out of that and there were times that were really That one, we might not make it ourselves. But to you know, we might we may have had to turn around and things like that. And as a result, it just became such a proud moment. And I think our, our sort of team spirit together was something that I really hold closely in my, in my heart, it was such a such a great experience. And it's always best when you share things. I'm a strong believer of that. And I suppose the final final number three, what would that be, I think, probably my first ever expedition because that kick started it all. And that was to Svalbard for 10 weeks in up in the Arctic. And that was sort of the first time I realised that this is something that something that I was relatively good at something that I was very eager to learn more about. And that just started it all. Really 10 weeks of the Arctic's does that T,

 

Catie Friend  05:51

that's incredible. 10 weeks from from never having experienced it before. You just said that you knew you were good at it. What does that mean? How does one know that one is good at adventuring, and, you know, living in remote parts of the world?

 

Lucy Shepherd  06:05

I think if you enjoy it, if you enjoy aspects of it, that other, you know, are challenging, but you take that you take that on board, and you enjoy that part of it as much as the other part. You accept that as part of it, then that's a real good, that's a good starting point, I think. And I'd never you know, I've never been particularly good at anything much really growing up. And then at 18, I went off to this Arctic expedition. And I'd always been a fan of the likes of when he started when I was a teenager in a bear grylls no one really knew of him. And I was reading these books and that, you know, opened the doors to run, I'll find some people like that. And I've read all these books, and I've read these this word expedition. And his word expeditions have sounded so magical and mysterious. And I didn't I was at the age where I didn't really think that that was something that I could do or that people even still did expeditions. And then I think it was age 1617 saw an advert in the paper for this 10 week spellbind expedition. And it said expedition and I sort of said, You know, I can go on an expedition, but that has sort of created this imagination, and excitement and enthusiasm, just even preparing for something like that, because that's as much as the of the adventure as the adventure itself. Isn't that you know, there's a lot of preparation. Absolutely. So, ya know, as soon as I was on an expedition with myself, I felt like I was sort of in a storybook.

 

Catie Friend  07:35

That is incredible. Because you do think these days, there must be nowhere in the world that people haven't gone before an expedition sort of, as you say, especially as a youngster perhaps but even though you'd think, Oh, really? Is there anything people haven't done or haven't been at sort of conjures up men and woollen suits and dying on the side of the Eiger, that kind of thing? Yeah. And so how do you come up with what you want to do? Because obviously, that was something you saw and you joined, but presumably, do you set your own agenda as much as possible?

 

Lucy Shepherd  08:09

Yeah, I mean, that was the only one really, that was sort of pre organised, you know, expedition. And ever since then, I realised that I wanted to go to the places that were more remote. And, you know, that people hadn't done it necessarily done before very few had. And I think for me, when I'm trying to decide I get, I get a sort of gut feeling and something in my heart, I suppose that this urgency when I've decided, like, that's it, I've got to go very quick at deciding where I want to go. And then I don't like it to be very much sort of too long from the preparation point to going. So if it's very remote, that's a big part. If I haven't heard of it, that's a big bonus. There's lots of lots of places or areas in countries that I've never heard of. And then if it's got a big journey, which attracts me, but for I mean, you say that people do think that there's nothing left to explore there. So I mean, as you know, so untrue. There are so many parts of wealth, the sea, the ocean is the obvious one, but then even the jungles where I was in the Amazon. Yes, people had been in and out of that area, but no one there was no records or anything. And I was with our Indians who they were under the impression that no one had done what we were doing. We were going into that whole expedition, not knowing how long it would take. It was very unknown. We ever soon as we stepped foot into that deep jungle, it was very much like okay, this is up to us. This is we just have to take each day as it goes. And by doing that, you know, it would be very demoralising. If you actually had a proper plan, because the jungle throws everything at you. Yeah, there'd be days where you're only doing two kilometres when you use that's it. It's ridiculous and you say two kilometres In 810 hours, but you just have to just have to roll with it and accept that that's the kind of thing that the jungle environment leads to.

 

Catie Friend  10:08

Do you think that? I mean, Have you always been a patient person, there must be an element of patience in these sorts of urgency crossed with patients, because as you say, two kilometres in eight hours is sown, soul destroying, but perhaps you as you say, you have to roll with it and understand that that in itself is an achievement. Yeah, I

 

10:30

know, I would, I would classify myself as a patient person. And just know if you know, if something is out of your control, then you have to accept that with everything. And that goes with weather conditioning conditions, when you're climbing that goes with like, how you're feeling. I mean, if it's something so bad that you can't control it, then you just have to calculate what you can control and figure out what you what you can do from then on, and then go from there everything.

 

Catie Friend  10:58

Yeah, talking of which I read on your website about having been stuck in a tent for two weeks on the side of Denali.

 

Lucy Shepherd  11:05

Yes,

 

Catie Friend  11:06

that sounds insane. People say that.

 

Lucy Shepherd  11:10

I like honestly, that, that two weeks, I really it just bled into what I can't remember being that board at all. It's very strange. I think I was a bit delirious.

 

Catie Friend  11:20

Tell us about that. What How did that come about? And how did you feel? And how did you keep up morale and all that sort of stuff?

 

Lucy Shepherd  11:27

Well, Denali is so denied in Alaska. And it's known for having these mega storms. And myself and three others, three friends who has a team of four, started planning this expedition. And I sort of took on quite a lot of the logistics side of things. And everything I was reading about not only capturing when these storms that last, you know, they can last days. And sometimes they would even last 10 days or something like that. And I was reading this and but then I found it a bit confusing that a lot of teams, when they went, they would only take sort of 21 days of food, so they would expect it. And that would be allowing for, you know, a storm. But that didn't make much sense to me. Because if you want us to give your best, your best crack at the mountain, need to take as much food as you possibly can. In case this happens. Especially as you know, you take a sled or poke halfway up the mountain anyway. Okay, and before you start the climb, and so we decided to take as much food as we could possibly take, which I think was 32 days in the end. So 11 more days, 11 days more than others would take. And would you believe it, as soon as we set off, it's bright blue sky, and it's beautiful weather, you know, cold, we're freezing, but just lovely. And then we think we're going quite slow to go this food. And then we reach 14,000 foot camp, and the weather starts to roll in. And it starts to get in minus 40. And then the winds start to pick up and then snow starts to come and you're constantly digging out your tent. Because it's just, you know, you're getting you keep sinking into the snow so much and getting piles of snow on top of you. And then the days just started rolling by and rolling by and you know, other teams were really struggling and having to risk going back down the mountain because they didn't have enough food. Or they would be starving attend knowing that as soon as the sun came out that they would have to go down instead of going up. But yeah, we were sort of happy as Larry just sitting sitting in our tent, eating our rations, having a rest. I donate to it. I mean two weeks in it's one of the hilleberg tents so I mean, if you're on Denali is so cold if you're not moving, it's frighteningly cold so you're either in your sleeping bag or doing something otherwise it's just a bit of a panic quick. Okay, so yeah, just spent a lot of my time either digging out the snow or melting a lot of snow because it takes a long time to melt the water for your food and melt the snow sorry for your food and water. Or Yeah, in my sleeping bag. But

 

Catie Friend  14:03

it sounds like excellent preparation for lockdown beings.

 

14:08

right a lot of napping.

 

Catie Friend  14:12

Amazing and and relationships between the team were fine. Everybody played their part. Nobody freaked out. Yeah, I

 

14:20

mean, so I was in a tent with Tim and then there were the other tent had to Matt and will. And there would be days went by that we didn't actually see them well, but we'd be shouting to them through the walls. And yeah, I think everyone was just as patient and accepting You know, this is, this is where we are. We knew this was going to be tough. You know, the best as long as everyone is okay and healthy. And that's the most important thing and I am definitely very keen or I always go with like minded team members. No egos just don't exist, that that can't be a thing. I cannot go with people who you know, will go go gung ho and will do Anything to reach that summit or whatever. So I think as long as we're all caring for each other, and everyone's looking after each other, and you know, if someone needs to stop, and whether it be a blister or adjusting something that will make whatever we're doing the climb or ski more comfortable than they do it. And I think we make, I think setting that out early on expectations is very, very important, then you can't really go wrong.

 

Catie Friend  15:25

It is very important to understand how you behave under duress I yeah, I have experience of that. Not two weeks on the side of a mountain, I hasten to add, but so you've mentioned a couple of times, already. So when you felt near death, and how you feel about that, because I also read your report about the or I heard what you talking about the first time you were in Ghana, and they were stoked by the Jaguar? Obviously, you and I watched your video about being in the high Sierras. And you know, some sketchy moments I know mountains and I know the fear of thinking. I don't know if we will get out of this. Yeah. And obviously there have been other times perhaps you didn't feel near death on Denali, but it must have started to feel like a flipping long time being stuck there. What do you do? Do you have self talk? Do you distract yourself? How do you cope with that level of this could be it.

 

16:23

I think a lot of it comes down to before I even leave. So I spend a lot of my time. As soon as I've decided on the expedition, I spend a lot of my time mentally preparing. I'm not it's not so much on purpose, but I do it. I think I do it naturally I start to think okay, what will it feel like if this happens, or if we are on the side of a mountain, and we have misjudged it, and it's avalanche risk or, you know, wild animals or things like that. So I stopped putting daydreaming and putting myself in that scenario. And thinking, you know, how would I cope. And I think I always sort of kept the same way I sort of go, Oh, I thought this would happen, or I didn't actually think this would happen. But now it's happening, I better get on with it. And it's happened, it does happen quite a lot. And I think the only time where I've really started to think this is this is too much and start to feel bad for my family and the people that you leave behind was when I was climbing in Tajikistan, and because everything about that just felt wrong. I'm very strong believer about trusting your gut and trusting your instinct. And if it's all been fine up until a small point, then there's like, like I was talking about earlier, you know, it's out of your control, you know that you go to these places. And there are these risks. And you take that sort of accepting factor and being focused and just doing what you can to eliminate any risks. But if you've had that I can take gigas down, I had a constant bad feeling about the whole thing that I guess gives you more time to think about it. And that guilt and sort of, yeah, just thinking I did it. This is not a place where I want to die.

 

Catie Friend  18:03

Strange, you should mention that I've actually heard other people who have been in these situations very, very real near death, on expeditions or on adventures. And that is what they think about they think about the people that they love and what a disaster this will be for them. Not about I'm gonna die. That Yeah, just thinking about thinking, Oh, man, it'd be terrible. Yeah, like, What

 

18:30

a shame. Because I think I actually had the most recent one because I did the Amazon this year. And there was there was one day in particular, that was absolutely terrifying. But because there was so much to think about on that day, and to make sure I didn't die. I there wasn't much time to think like that. But actually, when I've completed that expedition, I had to get a very, very small plane back to the city, which I've done before, and it's been absolutely fine. But in my gut, there was something wrong about this plane. And I've been on helicopters that just I later found out that the pilots who are flying it were not actually pilots. And this I started to get a similar feeling and the weather came in. And suddenly it was that the monsoon weather in the cloud with mountain jungle mountains everywhere and the plane was jumping all over the place. And I was just thinking, you know, cross this whole mountain. Now I'm gonna you know, we've been celebrating that completed this expedition now for goodness sakes, I think and then just started to think how are those people that came I remember trying to put my iPod on and I was like, chasing the music thinking this will take my mind off it. That's an unbelievable amount of music that has the word fall, or goodbye or you know, it's lovely to him. It's been lovely to be here. Now it's time to go and things like that. I just couldn't get it.

 

Catie Friend  19:59

And so you will just build up a huge amount of sort of adrenaline and cortisol. And, and I know from my own sort of adventures that there's there are two sides to that disappearing one is the sort of post event blues of, well, normal life feels a bit dull. Yeah. And obviously, there's a slight, sometimes there's a slight relief that, well, all the planning and all the journey and all that everything is over. And I can just sort of sit and drink a cup of tea. Yeah. But also, you know, that sort of stuff builds up in your system, you know, and it can become a addictive and be not terribly good for you, because there's that all the, you know, the sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system where your body is in constant fight or flight because it's so used to the adrenaline hits, how do you come down from events or events, expeditions and stuff so that you feel safe and ready and healthy enough to start again? Well,

 

20:58

I think, because of from my first expedition to Svalbard, and when I came back from that I hit the sort of post expedition blues, like you talked about, like, I hit it hard. And because I've never really experienced that before, and I mean, it was the stuff sort of eating disorder, I was very miserable to be around, you know, I started getting addicted to running to fill that gap and things like that. So I, for about, you know, six months, to then lemonade sort of lasted for a couple of years, really? I had this feeling of Wow. You know, because everyone kept saying about that expedition, you know, Wow, what an amazing once in a lifetime experience. And they say that when you get back, and to hear that, after you finish something, as if that's it, you know, that's the best it can be like, now you're off to university and get a real job. Yeah, real life starts now.

 

21:53

And they

 

21:54

kept saying that, like, you know, refuse to believe that that would be the case, and I never wanted to, you know, join the military or anything like that. So that wasn't an option, then that seemed like the only option, you know, from the people that you read about you do this thing. So I did accept that that might be that might be it, and I have to find my find the kick elsewhere. But it was actually sort of meeting Neal Norton, who I know is a mutual friend of ours, he gave me this sort of self belief that actually, I could take this further, and I could keep doing it. When I saw that he was still doing it, you know, he'd been doing things, you know, all the time, that gave me the confidence to believe that actually, you know, there is this whole world out there of people doing these things met, I can tap into it, I just have to figure out how to fundraise, I have to figure out how to get the skills and go from them. And so now every time I returned from an expedition, I prepare myself for it. And I sort of reflect on I sort of start to relive it. And I also film every expedition. And so by filming it, I then come back. And when I get back a few weeks after I get back, I'll start editing it and go through the footage, and I sort of relive it that way.

 

Catie Friend  23:08

So yeah, I start sort of post processing it

 

23:12

there. And you start to think because because you're so on edge, the whole not on edge, but you're so alert and thinking about the present constantly, when you're there, you don't actually realise what an incredible experience it was until you get back.

 

Catie Friend  23:25

Seems a bit of a shame, doesn't it? is proper type to fun

 

23:30

100% type deal?

 

Catie Friend  23:34

And when do you often get asked? Do you still get asked? When are you going to get a real job? When are you going to settle down? When are you going to you know, because you've been doing this for decades. So you've pretty much proved that this is a something you can do are good at but also that you can sustain a life doing? Do you still get asked about that?

 

23:53

I mean, I think it depends it's very much a reflection of the person if they're asking it now. So if they are you know, I think you don't really get our pity in that same world if that sort of thing. So when you're going to like push it like they presume that as soon as you start family or something like that, then that's it you stop was like, when's that ever been the case for you know, men never met have never been asked her. So, I mean, I remember my parents for comfort for the first couple years start to think you know, this can't last forever. And then things started to come from it and skill level went up and actually now they they look at the pictures when I get back and they realise Oh, they have for some time they realise that the smile on my face on those pictures i can't i it's not the same smile as it is in in day to day life. It's definitely a very, very happy proud you they smile out there. You can't hide the outdoors.

 

Catie Friend  24:51

That sounds amazing. And in terms of friendships, obviously now you have a very firm well I hope you have a firm base of friendship base. On your adventures and people that you can do these sorts of things with, but at the age of 18, when you decided to sort of take on this thing, or when you were leaving University saying, Yeah, I'm just going to go off and tackle the world. Yeah, did people? You know, you you mentioned you touched on the once in a lifetime opportunity? Did? Did you have friends who got it? Or was it just quite hard to find people who weren't? You know, I've heard before of adventurers and explorers and things saying that people got a little bit. No, well, I'm settling down to real life. So you should be too and there's a kind of envy and a little bit of, you know, not it's not much fun, because there's this sort of clash between what they think they should do and what you that you want to do. Yeah, I

 

25:42

mean, I think for a while, people, a lot of people thought it was just sort of an extended holiday, which really, really got to me, because it's like, well, I know what you're saying, because it's it, you know, for me, it is something that I get secondary enjoyment from, but it's also a sort of career and lifetime thing that I'm doing. And I would I think I'm very I'm a firm believer about, you know, I think people have talked about this before, but people are either drains, or radiators, I think is the idea. So the people who can either drain the energy from you, and you really feel it if I start talking about some expedition, and I very rarely will start talking about expeditions, because I am aware that people and the, you know, the wrong sort of people don't want to hear about them. I don't want to have you know, I don't want to share anything with people. People aren't interested at all, of course. But if someone sucks the energy out of you, then you have to question why you know why hanging around with them in the first place, you should definitely we should all try to radiate energy and give off enthusiasm and try and motivate others. So as I guess, it started to make me think, you know, who am I friends with? And who are my closest pals? You know, if they're encouraging for this, because they see it's something that I can't really live live without them. And that's, that's what you want, really?

 

Catie Friend  27:07

And do you get the opportunity to pass this on to young people? No, because it's something that, especially in these crazy COVID times, you know, people are stuck a lot of the time with the people that they're stuck with? Yeah, do you get the opportunity? Or do you take the opportunity when you can to sort of express this to people that you know, finding the right community, finding the people that support you, and, you know, love you for all your craziness. And as you say, radiate energy, is that something you are able to pass on?

 

27:42

I am actually starting a sort of flog on YouTube, because, you know, we're all stuck at home. So I'm actually starting something to share this knowledge while I while I'm here in my house, and other people are stuck in their house, you know, what, what can we all do to try and get through this together? But I mean, when I do these, that I haven't been doing the recently, but when I'm doing them in person, these talks, you can really feel it's often the quiet ones. And it's the ones that don't ask the questions. When you sit with the with the questions at the end, they come up to you. And they've got that twinkle in their eye that I remember having when I would watch someone that would give you data. I mean, it's not much it just gives you something to think, oh, maybe I can. Maybe I can do that. And it might not be to do with adventure at all. But it might just be everyone needs a little motivation and self belief. And everyone needs to top it up all the time. I said, I always need to talk about and things I exercising every day is a very good way to do that. And that tops tops your sort of throws away you think about yourself all the time, doesn't it? As soon as she stopped doing exercise for a day, two days or more. I mean, I feel my productivity. And my forward thinking definitely definitely goes down a

 

28:57

lot.

 

Catie Friend  28:58

Absolutely. And I I've had a while I was not sporty at all till I was nearly 40. And then I just sort of went and did some big stuff. But I it's still not it is still not part of my makeup. I find it so hard. I have to make myself exercise because I know that it's good for me. And I know that I feel better afterwards. Whereas I'm married to an exercise addict who if he doesn't do something, you know, as you say, two days without exercise, and he's like a bear with a sore head. Yeah, yeah, things like that. And also, I was listening to one of you it seems to be in a year of podcasts for you. I was listening to a podcast you did earlier in the year. And you said something that really resonated with me, which was finding out finding where you are happiest. And what makes you happiest and do more of that.

 

29:52

Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't have like, for me, obviously I love being in the Arctic and the jungles. Can't do that every day. How to Cook. But what is that feeling that you get from that, and it is not, it is most often a feeling of feeling proud of yourself and feeling no discontent and they're satisfied with how things are going. So if you can figure out what, you know, on a small scale, what does that for you. And then you can do that whenever you feel like you need a little bit more.

 

Catie Friend  30:24

A bit of I couldn't agree more, because just to sort of link back the two things that you've just said one about the the people who are listening, but don't ask questions until the end. And that feeling proud of yourself when I was about 25 or six, I heard Chris moon speaking. And I don't know if you know who he is. But he was a former British soldier who got kidnapped by the Khmer Rouge. He lost an arm and leg in a landmine explosion. And I mean, His story is just incredible. And I heard him speak. And he talked about that. And he talked about going on to complete the marathon disarmed. And just this part of me that was like, just completely speechless at the wonder and thinking and it sparked something in me at the time, I was hard working. So hard drinking, just, you know, partying and didn't really do any sports. So I kind of tucked it away. Yeah, and then something, almost 20 years later, I find myself a middle aged mother of two, running in the very first half marathon to sub, you know, in the deserts of the Canary Islands. Yeah. And finishing with that feeling of, Oh, my God, I cannot believe I managed to do that. But I can imagine. And, and I wrote at the end of my blog fight, find something that makes you feel this good. Yeah. And just keep doing it. It's the most extraordinary feeling. And I can understand why you keep searching for it. Even though there are obviously very real reasons why you do what you do. And I'm coming back to that. But it's just that that searching for that feeling

 

32:05

is and you can get it like I if even if you're just doing a hard running session or something up a hill, I found myself I think, just off to the Arctic when I was doing a lot of running. And I would go back to feeling like if it was hard that that run in particular, I would think, Hey, you know, you've, you've done this architect, you know, you can do this, feel proud of yourself, like, just believe in yourself. And if you can feel proud of yourself, and there's no better person to look up to. So you should always look up to yourself. And that doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's your past self. And if you're not your current self, you know, you can get back there. So to just keep keep finding that feeling, and then you can't exactly, it is addictive, it is

 

Catie Friend  32:51

it but I find it, I also get it if when I get up in the morning, kids are at school, and I tackle the most annoying thing of the day. Well, I don't always but on the days that I do, I think hey, check it out. And then, like 12 hours longer than I mean, I

 

33:12

have a saying that I first came came to learn it in the in Svalbard. And it's Don't lose your boldness. And what that sense essentially means is, as soon as you know the thought, or the word, I can't be bothered pops into your head. And that can be about anything that could be about taking the bins out or offering accountable this change the sheets or think things. As soon as it happens, it obviously is going to be a burden if you don't do it for the rest of the day. So do it straightaway. So my rule is as soon as I started, obviously can't I'm not hit superhero, I can't do it all the time. But as soon as I think you know, I can't be bothered, then I just got to rip off the bandage. And, you know, go go and do it straight away. And that makes the day or the task so much better. And on expedition it can be a life or death scenario. You know, even if it's a cannonball, all my, my crampons slightly loose, we have all this fear right now because I'm going to if I do it now then everyone will have to stop or

 

34:07

I won't get to catch up.

 

34:09

And there's this whole I mean, you must know it. There's this constant thing when you're with a team and you're not wanting to hold people back. But you. So if something happens that actually you would benefit from sorting, but it might be a bit of a faff, and it might cause a bit of strain. Just do it. Otherwise, something much worse could happen. And I'm sure lots of things that happen when things go wrong. It's always once lots of small things going wrong. Well,

 

Catie Friend  34:35

I do know that because I did ski mountaineering race the Petro diglossia from Zermatt to verbi a couple of years ago with two very good friends of mine and we'd been through the hole how do we react? What do we do if someone's got a problem? We wanted each other to you know, we wanted to talk about it. If someone was too hot, too cold, getting a blister you know, not feeling it, whatever it might be. We were We were we made a team decision that we would always I always listened to the other person that was having a bit of an issue and we would stop or we would help, or we would fix or whatever.

 

35:07

And these are the conversations that people have to have have. And they don't always they don't always have these things. And that is where things care for.

 

Catie Friend  35:13

And what exactly because halfway through the race, I was feeling we were all on tip top form, we'd had our ups and downs. And I was thinking, it's not as hard as everybody thinks. But I had stopped drinking water, because my CamelBak wasn't letting water out. Yeah, I assumed because it was, like three in the morning at 3000 metres, that it was frozen. And I had another little juice pack, and you know, like a little sort of energy drink thing. So I was drinking away at that. And I just kept thinking, I'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. Yeah, it'll be fine. And four hours later, I still hadn't said anything, even though I was the teammate whose job it was to say, no, it's time to drink. Now it's time to eat. And I kept thinking, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Because tiredness makes you stupid. Well, it makes me stupid. And it was a lesson I learned really hard way because I suddenly jiggled my pack. And actually, it had just been kinked. And there was nothing wrong with it. But by that stage, I was massively dehydrated and going as rate of a tortoise. Yeah, which affected the rest of the team. And fortunately, there also there were also lovely, they didn't hold it against me. But it was you're absolutely right, these things. You have to you just have to fix it. Yeah.

 

36:29

Just fix it. Just stop it and sort it out there. And then.

 

Catie Friend  36:33

Yeah, and I wanted sort of touch on you a little bit about the baldness, because there was also it was accompanied by a quote by David Attenborough about that, you know, I can't remember the exact quote, but it's about people won't bother, don't care about the things that they haven't seen or experienced. Yeah. And loosely, quote, and obviously, you are a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, you're on the council, the scientific exploration society. So a couple of things come out of that for me. One is, how do you stay bothered, but not become overwhelmed? Because it's so huge. I watched David Attenborough's new film The other night, and I thought, Oh, you're doomed.

 

37:14

Yeah.

 

Catie Friend  37:15

How do you keep that bothered? I will keep the second question for after you answer this. But how do you keep that sense of urgency without thinking, I'm so overwhelmed, I can't do anything.

 

37:24

And I honestly think that the younger people who are coming up now, there's a lot that they mean, we should give the power to them. They give me a lot of hope. And I mean, I know we all know that the technology is there to make a greener planet. It wasn't there maybe 10 or 15 years ago, but it is now and it does just need some bit of investing. But I think people's people's minds are changing. And change is coming. And whether the government does it or whether it's people based through businesses and big companies. I'm very, I'm very optimistic about things. I know, the world seems a bit of a very shadowy grey place right now with everything that's going on. But I do think we will come out of this. And I do I mean, I think there'll be a lot of things that we will lose. And I unfortunately think that species more species will of course, be lost. And rain forests will be kept close, and they're near gone. But I think at the end of the day, we've we have to, and so we will, and I'm seeing changes every day, and it sort of fills me with joy. I mean, even going up to Scotland, last week, since last time I went, which was six months ago. So the amount of more wind turbines and things like that that have gone up. It's incredible. Like it's filled with it. And if we just keep getting it, we have to rapidly do more, of course, but I just yeah, I mean this, this world is too beautiful and to special. It's the only home we've got to not do something. So I hope that the greed and the sort of selfishness can be put aside and we can hopefully all work together as on a global scale, because that's essentially what needs to happen.

 

Catie Friend  39:10

What exactly and what do you bring back? So do you attach sort of investigating, I suppose is perhaps not the right word. But presumably, you know, you were away in Ghana in a place where people had never been before. Do people ask you to bring back evidence of what's there, what's not there anymore, or so on.

 

39:33

And so during that expedition, I was at as long as well as the journey itself. I was collecting every stream or every river water source I went by. I was taking water, water and sediment samples. And so the arrow is in a scene. It's very it's in the Kentucky mountains and it's seen as very isolated and it's protected and it's the they're very proud of the area. But because it's so high off, it's sort of you know, the Doesn't necessarily get polluted. That's what they think. I was taking water samples to look for microplastics in the water and sediment, because obviously we're finding these things up in the Arctic. And it's basically snowing. microplastics. So I mean, I because of COVID things, the research at the lab is on hold, but it will be very interesting to see what the results are and how bad it's got up there. So here, we have to find out how like whether it's just on the edges of the mountains, or whether it's got right into the into the depths of of it.

 

Catie Friend  40:34

And did you carry samples the whole way, then?

 

40:37

Yep. Yes.

 

40:39

No, you know, the bags got heavier. And yeah.

 

Catie Friend  40:42

Which is not normal on expedition. You normally get lighter food and

 

40:47

exactly litres and litres of water.

 

Catie Friend  40:50

Wow. Oh, that's amazing. Incredible. And so what is next on the agenda? Obviously, we are a little bit in hiatus for adventures. And I think you're probably very lucky. And one of the few that's been able to get away on expedition this year.

 

41:04

Yeah, I mean, I was actually meant to be guiding quick few Arctic expeditions. But of course, postponed and hopefully they'll go ahead next year. So that is sort of straightaway on the list, as well as I meant to be learning how to paraglide because it just makes getting off the mountain much easier. So I meant to be getting off to Spain to do that. But that might be postponed a few weeks, slash few months because of the current COVID. But the the big expedition that I'm planning is actually back to Guyana to do something else, something bigger than could take as long as three months. Sure. And so just trying to get the funding and hopefully might have recently got a little bit of a bite for that. So hopefully I can get that sorted and start planning for autumn next year.

 

Catie Friend  41:59

And when you say you're guiding so people can join you on some of your expeditions.

 

42:04

Yes, that's right. So one of my friends who is Norwegian live has a company up in Northern Norway, called touch today. And I started guiding with her last year. And we are going to be doing well. If all goes well, we'll be doing more trips across the fence market, a plateau in Norway, north south and west waste, but also in Svalbard as well. So I'm either with her or I might be on my own or with someone else. So we'll see.

 

Catie Friend  42:34

And that information can be found on your website.

 

42:37

Yep. So I mean, they can anyone can email me or there's a little join me tag, which is the expedition for Svalbard that was meant to be this year, but it will be very similar. So in the next year, and it's a very affordable, it's very, very extreme expedition, like it is very extreme. And we take novices, but we ease people in you know, we do the admin and the cooking to start with navigation, then gradually hand the reins over when we feel the team is confident enough, and we take up to eight people. And it's incredible to see the difference in in the team at the end. And I have just like we were talking about earlier, I talked to them about, you know, you're gonna get back, you feel like you're on cloud nine at the moment that you'll get back and you nothing would have changed. You know, it's only been a week or two weeks, but nothing would have changed in you know, your family would be the same. The milk might still be in the fridge or whatever, but you feel very, very, very different. And so it's sort of coaching them, you know, you might get the expedition's

 

43:35

blues but go back

 

43:36

to how you feel right now remember, you can capture this feeling and go back to it anytime you feel like that.

 

Catie Friend  43:41

And so anybody from any walk of life, sort of anyone reasonably fit and yet excited about doing something pretty hardcore.

 

43:51

Yeah, the main the main thing is enthusiasm and up for

 

Catie Friend  43:54

it. And then we'll take you the rest of the way. Brilliant. And so we can find out on your website, which is

 

44:00

at Lucy Shepherd dotnet usage Shepherd

 

Catie Friend  44:03

dotnet. And on Instagram,

 

44:05

it's Lucy ships, but also the I will be starting a proper YouTube channel in the coming weeks as well. Well, I'll be sharing tips and advice and chatting to other inventors and things like that.

 

Catie Friend  44:17

Brilliant. Well, I look forward to that especially as you being a filmmaker your your films are of a higher quality than some other self filmed films we've seen over the years. It's brilliant. I really, really enjoyed having a good old look at those living vicariously through you. Lucy, thank you so much for joining me honestly that it's just brilliant. I'm staring out at the flipping rain again. But thinking Oh, I just want to get out and go on an adventure. So thank you so much for joining me.

 

44:47

I thank you and then it's got my sort of adventure bug backup by talking about it. So yeah, I can't wait to get out again.

 

Catie Friend  44:54

Brilliant. Well, all the very best and we will hear more about your adventures. In the years to come, I'm absolutely sure.

 

45:03

Perfect. Thank you very much.

Chatting to Elisabet Barnes

Warning: adult themes

Elisabet Barnes.jpg

Elisabet Barnes is best known for being a professional ultra runner. She has twice won the formidable Marathon des Sables and has had an incredible running career.

In 2018 she “hit the wall” and had to find her way back to full health and, in the process, discovered a new passion. 

She is currently training to be a sexologist and couples therapist and so our conversation ranges from her days as a management consultant in London to the death of her father, her journey to becoming ultra marathon royalty, self care, sex, relationships and to women finding joy and confidence in their own bodies.

Elisabet is still coaching running and you can find more info on that on Instagram on @ultra.coach

Her other IG account is @elisabetbarnes and her website is www.elisabetbarnes.com

I woke up the morning after this interview thinking of about 100 other questions I wanted to ask. I hope you find it as interesting as I did.

NB We chat about couples in a heterosexual context but I wanted to mention that Elisabet works with couples of all genders.


Transcript

Please note transcripts are generated by arifiical intelligence so may not be 100% accurate.

“SPEAKERS

Catie Friend, Elisabet Barnes

 

Catie Friend  00:02

Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries, and how they keep healthy, happy unsane. Today I'm chatting to Elizabeth Barnes, former professional ultra runner and amongst other things, too time winner of the gruelling marathon descibe, she has now turned her hand to sexology and couples therapy. And we will be chatting all about her journey into ultra running the hitting the wall physically overloading herself, and then we're going to be talking about sex, basically, and how we can have better sex, how we can have better relationships. And in particular, we're going to be talking about how women can take control of their desires of their feelings about their body, and really get what they want from sex and relationships. Hi, Elizabeth, how are you? Thank you so much for joining me today on chatting to a friend,

 

Elisabet Barnes  01:06

I get the thank you so much for inviting me. Super excited to talk to you.

 

Catie Friend  01:12

Yeah, it's very exciting. I want to touch on some lots of different topics. Obviously, the The purpose of this podcast is to talk to women about their journeys, their challenges, their self care, and sort of friendship and community. And I just want to do a little bit of background on you, we've had quite the change of career over the years background in management consultancy after a degree in engineering, and then on to being a professional ultra running well, a bit of a bit of royalty. So I know that to be true. And now a sex and relationship therapist. When I first read through sort of fairly disparate careers, I thought that you were someone who had always followed their passions, but not according to your own website that says you didn't really start following your passions until about 2010.

 

Elisabet Barnes  02:02

Can you talk to us about that? Yeah. Yeah, no. So. So what happened was I, you know, I had a very successful career in consulting, and I was working in London, and I was working long hours as you do, and things were going well, and I was very much focused on the next promotion, because that's what you kind of get drilled into thinking about and, and, and then one day in February 2010, my father passed away. And it was, it was all very, very sudden and unexpected. And, and that just made me think about life. No, because I think when something like that happens to you, whether it's someone close to you passing away, or someone getting terminal illness, or you know, something similar, it prompts you to reflect and to question things and the meaning of life. And so I went through a process of about maybe six months, something like that, trying to figure out what to do with my life. Because I realised that I wasn't entirely happy that probably my choices have had been more maybe to do with what other people expected of me, rather than something I actually really wanted to do.

 

Catie Friend  03:33

That is a recurring theme I find in many women, certainly around my age, that you sort of make up these expectations, or you don't they are actual expectations and find yourself on a path that you weren't entirely convinced that you should have been on.

 

Elisabet Barnes  03:50

Yes, yeah, exactly. That in a way, I came from a quite a conservative upbringing. And I think my, my parents had certain expectations in terms of education, you know, what I should, what I should be doing what I should be working with, and other people around, you kind of have these expectations that, you know, you should form a family and, you know, do this and do that. And it's easy to do, I think to just fall into that, really, without thinking too much about it, you know, it becomes it's just that the societal norms, like become the right thing to do, even if maybe they're not know if that makes sense.

 

Catie Friend  04:31

Absolutely. It absolutely does make sense. And so you were already someone who ran I mean, you had already run marathons and so on. You didn't just suddenly leap into being an ultra runner.

 

Elisabet Barnes  04:42

No, I started running. I mean, I have always done sports. I come from a kind of outdoor family and we have a history of some successful athletes in my family. And so it was a natural thing for me to be active from a very young age and then I started Running in my teens, done some other sports before that I ran my first marathon in 2002. And they actually, I really did enjoy that. And they enjoyed the process of training for it. And I realised that I was quite good at the endurance side and running those long distances. And so it's interesting now we're looking back at it actually, with what they have achieved since then. But you know, when you take on your first marathon, it's seems like such a huge thing. And, and it was, it really was no, I was very proud of myself when I had done it. And he just gave me this taste for more. So I kept running marathons. And I had done quite a few by the time my father passed away, and that kind of happened. And that's when I decided that I would eventually decided that I would venture into ultra running.

 

Catie Friend  05:52

And in terms of we were talking about, you know, the expectations and a fairly conservative upbringing, how was that viewed amongst your circle of friends or your community, your family at that time to sort of give up the successful career and management consultancy? To put your hat in the ring? Being an ultra runner?

 

Elisabet Barnes  06:11

Yeah, that's an interesting question, I see that what happened was that I, I grew up in Sweden, and the Swedish culture is a little bit similar to Norway, where I live now that there are differences as well. But But anyway, it's it's sort of this kind of socialistic, sort of culture where, you know, you, everyone should be the same and, and I sort of noticed that when I studied, and when I joined, consulting firm in Sweden, after uni, that everyone pretty much for the same, you know, you everybody came from one out of three universities, pretty much very similar background, very, very similar sort of status and education and, and interests. And there were certain things that, you know, you, you kind of should be doing, and you should have a preferably, you know, live in this place, and have a summer house, they're there or, you know, go on holiday to these in these different places, and everyone were very similar. And then I moved to the UK, and I started to work in London for the same company. And that was very refreshing in that sense, because there was so much more diversity, and people from many different backgrounds. So actually, I found it more open, in that sense, less judgmental, and more like, I could be my self. And when I eventually decided to focus more on running, because this is a gradual process, you know, you don't just resign one day and live from running the next right, it doesn't really work like that. I actually had a lot of support. And you know, my boss at the time was really great. And he supported me part time. And so I actually, I didn't feel like that was maybe a particularly sort of controversial thing to do, or that I didn't have support for it. In that sense. Although, of course, there were people who questioned it and who maybe you don't know, maybe not so much question it. But I sensed that there were people who were envious in a sense, and that maybe they also had dreams that they wanted to pursue, but they preferred to take the safe option.

 

Catie Friend  08:41

Yes, I do. It was actually is one of the questions I wanted to ask you, because obviously, a lot of what you have done over the years is change management, helping people with their running and know their relationships. And so change is a big feature in your career and your life. And I wondered, you know, sometimes I find Well, I have found over the years that people fear change, because it's easier to stick to what they know, you know, because it's easier, but even if it's not what they love, do you think that's one of the main drivers of that sort of envy that sort of, well, I can't do it, because I have kids I have, you know, I don't have the time I don't have the money. I don't have that sort of thing. I'll just stay where I am.

 

Elisabet Barnes  09:21

Yeah, I suppose probably probably one of them. I mean, we, we resist change naturally. I mean, that that's what that's just what we do. We don't like change. So we have to force ourselves into change, or get forced into it by some circumstances that just happen. And so my life would have possibly looked quite a bit different if my father hadn't died at that point. You know, it was just one of those things that forced me to think it's easy to become so comfortable and then of course with you know, You think we are people who or like humans need, we need support from others. That's how we are created, we're not created to exist in solitude, and to do everything by ourselves and to be alone, we seek support from a group and maybe that's why it becomes you become a bit like the people you surround yourself with. And, and you, you have this sort of culture in your community. And it's, you know, it's not very strange that people become kind of similar, I suppose. And then, you know, you get your into you do all of these things that are expected from you, and you come out from University with a big death, and then you, you know, you buy a house and you have a big mortgage, and then you have kids, and then you have a car, and then you sit there, and what are you supposed to do? You know, because many people get financially trapped. And so even if you want to do something else, it's actually quite difficult to see how that is going to work. Yeah,

 

Catie Friend  11:06

definitely. And in terms of what the change into ultra running, what did that bring you? You know, you had a good few years, from 2011 to 2017 seem to be your 18 sort of seem to be your, your big years. I mean, you You want some incredible things you want the marathon to sob twice the Oman desert race started in the Everest challenge, correct me if I'm wrong, but what did it give you that you hadn't had before,

 

Elisabet Barnes  11:35

it gave me an opportunity to travel to some amazing places that otherwise I wouldn't have gone to, I think, and what I also really, I have enjoyed about it is that let's say you do a race, like, you know, like the marathon the sob or something and you're in, you're out in the desert with like, 1000 other people, you know, you're all equal. No, everybody is there with a small little backpack with everything, they're going to survive on the 40 week, and we're in our running clothes. And you know, nobody really cares, you know, what you do for work, or what your religious views are, or how much money you have, or anything like that, you know, you're sort of stripped back down to the person and the human being you actually are, you know, without all of those other things. And I think that's very refreshing, because it makes you sort of realise what's, what's actually important in life, I think it's, I think it's quite grounding and humbling.

 

Catie Friend  12:47

And I think I've read, I've read somewhere before that you said, you had a great admiration always had great admiration for those towards the sort of two thirds to the back of the pack, who are often out for twice the amount of time the elite runners like yourself, are there for and they've had to, you know, train for this huge thing while juggling a full time job and families and so on.

 

Elisabet Barnes  13:09

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, there are some difficult challenges that come with running at the front and winning races, but, but there are also some huge challenges that come with, you know, an enduring an event like that at the back. Which, in some ways, makes it I think, a lot more difficult than, and that's just so interesting, observing people's minds, and, and realising really makes some strong, you know, because I have seen people, people pull out from races feeling really sorry for themselves, but actually, there wasn't really anything wrong with them. And then I have seen others with like, you know, the most horrible blisters or injuries or, or illness or whatever, and they have just sort of powered on through. They have just gotten on with it. And it's amazing, you know, the power of the mind, that's sort of very interesting to, to observe, because I think it just becomes so much more tangible in, in an environment like that.

 

Catie Friend  14:22

Yeah, you very kindly gave me the advice when I entered the half marathon to sub in for to ensure that if I just, you know, hiked and walked in the mountains here in Switzerland, I would be absolutely fine. And I was, and I remember, on day two, we were given the roadbook for the day, and there was a huge amount of climbing, which is not like you get I don't think you get that in Morocco. But in fortune tours, huge amount of climbing, and I remember this one woman and by this stage, I had blisters everywhere. I'm terrible blister person. There was this woman, one woman fighting fit to one look at the the amount of vertical and said, I'm not doing it. And I just thought, What? And I could not, I could not get my head around the fact that you just wouldn't even go out. But you know what? You know, we don't know everybody's battling their own demons. Maybe she only maybe she lived somewhere that was completely flat? And I don't know. But you know, is you're absolutely right, the mindset and the challenges faced by people at the bag, I'll tell you something, there's a lot more chatter goes on at the bag, there's a lot more I can tell you that for free. experience a lot more sort of, all right, how are you doing? Should we stop and just take your blisters? Good. Okay. So but then you so you were very successful that and then in that, and then in 2018? You as you put it, you hit the wall? What do you attribute to that? What do you think caused that? And how are you? Or how have you recovered? Is it still an ongoing process?

 

Elisabet Barnes  16:07

So I say if I start with, you know, what, what led to that, it's, um, it's not that, like one thing happened. But I would say that I, I pushed myself harder for many years. And I don't mean, just with the running, I mean, just, I'm just like that as a person, when I do something, I like to do it. Well, I like to be very thorough. And even though I, I wouldn't call myself a perfectionist now, but I think other people would do that. And certainly, the past, so so. So you know, even when I was working, I could work. You know, I could work very long hours, I could survive in periods on very little sleep. And I think that when you are younger, you can do that. And your body doesn't say no, straightaway, you have reserves. And so you can you can sort of do that. But I I do remember that I did hit the wall sort of one time when I was working. And I had to have seven weeks holiday after that. And I slept through most of it. And then I was fine. But then what happened was I when I started to make these changes in my life, and I was running ultra marathons I was still working was a mix of full time and part time I switched a little bit in between, I was building up a business, which while two businesses and it was a lot of work. So I was doing that on the side. And then my my marriage collapsed. And so in towards the end of 2016. I was also going through separation. And so there was a there were a lot of things going on in 2015 and 2016 I had done. I think each of those years I did like, at least in 2016, I did five long multi stage of dry races that were quite extreme, you know, the 250 kilometre type races, and then I summon all of my energy and the focus to towards Martin the sabella in 2017 to go and win that, which I did. And afterwards, I felt very, very, very tired, like, very empty, very tired. And I think that going through that had taken a lot out of me the whole period leading up to that, but probably it culminated in that race. And then I suppose I never really bounced back from that. But I then went into a lot of work and still had the separation. And it all took a lot out of me and they think that I tried to do everything. I was like, Yeah, I can do this, you know, I can run this business by myself and I can, you know, I can still be a good runner and you know, blah, blah, blah. But then I just I think the body had just had enough on it was sort of just telling me to slow down and and then I think I didn't really listen to that and then just sort of Yeah, put a stop to it. So it was quite how it happened was was very interesting. It was very physical, actually. So I was doing this trail event. And so I was I was supposed to lead some some running groups. I actually, I actually had to abort the run. I couldn't I got to eight kilometres and I was like I can't run anymore. You know, like And so yeah, but it was like the body just stopped sort of functioning. And I, I realised that this is not what this is not working, but now I have to do something if I if I carry on, I'm just gonna die and I have to do something

 

Catie Friend  20:13

and what have you done to get just to relate I not the same but very similar at towards the end of last year had what somebody very aptly called the other day a reset, where I just I wasn't so much physical but a little bit more mental just hit the wall. And so I understand that there's just there's a build up a build up and you ignore it and you ignore it because you're you know, you're a hard worker, or you've got family or you've all of the above. So I totally it while I can't relate necessarily to pushing my body that hard, I had pushed myself to the point where there was just too much going on. So what what have you done to aid recovery? Because you know, that this, for me, it was quite drastic steps like I basically, I just said no to everything.

 

Elisabet Barnes  21:09

I cut

 

Catie Friend  21:10

that right down to the absolute bare minimum of looking after myself and the children and Graham, my husband to start with. Yeah, sort of things did you do?

 

Elisabet Barnes  21:22

Yeah. So So when this happened, I, I had met my, my current husband. And, and he was very, very supportive. So it was great, because I just felt like I had his shoulder to lean on. I wasn't on my own. And, and that helped a lot. But what I did, the first thing I did was I looked at my calendar, and I looked at the things that I had committed to particularly, particularly the races that I had lined up. And I just said to myself, I have to cancel these races. And so I did that. And I still had sponsors, then which so it's kind of hard. Yeah, I was gonna ask, yeah, when you make a living from running and you realise you can't run. And I'm not the only one in this situation, I have watched, you know, particularly female runners, I mean, they just falling like dominoes, this is not uncommon, but I so basically, I cancelled my I cancelled my races and said, like, my health is more important. And I, I had also tried for a while to sell my business. And I realised that now I really had to do that. So I created this quite a visual person and I sang a bit strange, but I, when I look at like time in terms of months in the year, I visualise it, like kind of a bit of a like a circle, it has some kind of a shape in my head. So I drew up this shape on a piece of paper and I put down like milestones and also the key I need to ship this by that time and that by that time, but it was it was not like, you know, oh, I need to you know, reach tactical reach tactical reach it this was about it was like that, but it was about offloading stuff. So it was like a plan for me to do less. Whereas normally, maybe you plan to do more, planning to do less. And so it was like, How can I do that? So I tried to make a plan to make that happen. And then I I read a lot about health and nutrition. And they came to the conclusion to go plant based and see if that will help. So that's what I did. And then my husband and I weren't we weren't married them. But we are now but anyway, we were able to borrow a friend's house in Morocco. And so we went to Morocco for a month. And, and I just tried to do as little as possible. So I slept a lot. And I bought local food and I cooked healthy food. And I was just trying to be kind to myself.

 

Catie Friend  24:22

And have you found since then, because I did very similar sadly, not a month in Morocco, but and then I sort of set myself the goal of saying, right 2020 is going to be a really calm year, I'm not going to set myself any massive sporting challenges. I'm not going to take on x y and Zed and as we know 2020 has turned out to be a little more different than we anticipate. Yeah, but and for me lockdown became a sort of an opportunity to do stuff and I you know I'm in some ways similar as in I like to be doing things I like projects. I like taking on things goals, whether it's You know, physical or mental or work or kids or whatever it might be. I have found and I, so I'm interested to know what you found. How does somebody like you, who is always busy, who always wants to have something going, how have you managed to maintain that kindness to yourself without leaping? From the, you know, into the next project and the next project?

 

Elisabet Barnes  25:21

Yeah, it's a difficult one in the beginning, and for quite a while it was sort of self regulating, because I was so tired that I simply couldn't. And so I just had to accept that. And they, and they sort of did. I think I just said to myself, okay, no, no projects. No, no plans. Of course, I was thinking that, eventually, I'm gonna have to do something because I have to make a living from something. Yeah. But luckily, I didn't have to dump into work. I was I was okay. Anyway, financially, so that I could, yeah, like, step off the gas, you know. So it's, it's difficult, but I think, I think this kind of self regulation with the tiredness, and that he just meant I really didn't have much appetite to do something. And I think it was almost just instinct. And so now, of course, I am a bit more busy again. Maybe the difference now is that I sleep a lot.

 

Catie Friend  26:30

Yeah. Do you notice the symptoms of of sort of maybe when you start pushing yourself too hard again? And you think, oh, I've seen this before?

 

Elisabet Barnes  26:39

Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I have noticed that I was, you know, when, when when COVID hit, or before then I was training again. And I was supposed to run the marathon this year. And I had other races planned as well. So I had, I had three races planned for this year. Now I was I was back in training, and I was doing okay, but I was a bit concerned what would happen pushing my body so much again? And I felt in my I think I felt Yes, I just felt mentally that I wasn't, I wasn't entirely happy doing it anymore. I think I did it more because other people wanted me to do it.

 

Catie Friend  27:27

back into that old stuff.

 

Elisabet Barnes  27:28

Yeah. And I didn't see it, you know, I didn't see it. But but then someone when COVID hit, I just got some time to reflect on things. And I thought, well, actually, here's some, here's an opportunity. No, my races are getting cancelled, I don't have to run them. And maybe I should do something else. Maybe the time is right now to do something else.

 

Catie Friend  27:56

So and which is a very interesting, something else that I really want to come on to in two seconds. But first of all, before you we move off that subject before, you also mentioned that you sort of changed up your maybe your circle your community, people that perhaps were no longer serving you in your life, would that be a correct way of putting it?

 

Elisabet Barnes  28:16

Yeah, yes. Not not the same. Maybe just completely, you know, swapping circles or anything like that. But, but, but actually, just realising that there were maybe, you know, one or two relationships, that were not very healthy for me. And I think we all have that, you know, that we feel sometimes that, that there are people who maybe don't understand us who just drain, drain our energy. And, you know, maybe you try to make it work, but actually, I think sometimes this is what I have learned through life anyway, sometimes you you're better off just, you know, distancing yourself from those people and surrounding yourself with people who support you instead. And it's not always that easy, because, you know, you have people that that are in your life, and maybe you have to have some kind of relationship to them. But for me, I I just had to minimise the negative impact on myself. And so I I did that. And and then that made me feel better. Yeah.

 

Catie Friend  29:42

Good. I'm glad to hear that because that yes, as you say, it's a difficult choice, but sometimes an important one for our own well being, you know, I think of our community around here where we live in Switzerland, and how I you know, on the flip side, I probably would never have been involved in sports as I am now, if I hadn't been surrounded by such incredible role models and people who have very similar sort of outlook on that kind of thing. So it's about Yeah, choosing your your circle and what influences you and keeps you as you say, energised and not feeling drained. Hmm. So let us move on to the latest incarnation of Elizabeth Barnes, sex and relationship therapist. Now, I will be the first to admit that when I saw your Instagram feed start start to change. I was like, What on earth is going on here?

 

Elisabet Barnes  30:37

I don't think you were alone.

 

Catie Friend  30:40

Because one day, we're looking at Elisabet Barnes running doing you know, transgrancanaria, or pardon my mispronunciation, you know, or, you know, I doing workshops at la Santa in Marathi. And the next minute, we're seeing a picture of her very attractive bottom in a pair of lychee knickers with no explanation, and so, with you all that?

 

Elisabet Barnes  31:07

Yeah, no. So, um, yeah, I suppose those kind of focus, I think, started before I before I started to actually study to the therapy and the relationship and sex therapy. And actually, I mean, you know, they are sort of not connected in that sense, I suppose. But no, you know, what, I think, I don't know, I don't really know how to explain that one. But I, I think that what what has happened to me through this kind of process I've been through and, you know, meeting my husband and have been in a very, very supportive relationship and, and being more kind to myself, I think I have, I have felt a lot better about myself. And, and it's something that I have very much enjoyed. And I do follow, I do follow a number of accounts, on Instagram, with women that I think are very inspiring, and they can be women of all sorts and shapes of shapes and sizes. But I, I really love when women are not afraid to express themselves in whichever way they want, I love to look at, you know, beautiful curvy underwear models and whatever. And I think that in, maybe in today's society, like we're so we're so quick to judge people and, and I don't think that women, women, women carry a lot of shame around for all sorts of reasons and about a lot of things, but a lot of it has to do with our bodies, and our sexuality. And I, I really think that something needs to change. And so one thing I would like to do is just to, to kind of be there to be that sort of bolder person that, you know, is not afraid to show her balm in some nice underwear, you know, or whatever. And, and some people don't like that some people get offended. And some people love it and think it's inspiring. And I like to do it. And so that's kind of how, how that started. So I'm, I am sort of enjoying that. And I do it because I enjoyed and because I want to inspire people. And then then I started to study sexology and couples therapy. So then, of course, I started to post more about those kind of topics. And I have to admit, it was the most difficult decision, like what to do on social media was very difficult. They thought, should they keep this account just to running and start a separate one? Or, you know, what should I do? And then I kind of thought, Well, actually, I got some opinions on it as well. You know, people said, Oh, you have to you have to keep this separate, you know, the different audiences, you know, we shouldn't be offending people or things like that. But then I thought, well, you know, I'm at the end of the day, I am. I am who I am. I'd like to think that there are people in the running community also have sex. So I've thought to myself, why is the audience different anyway, like and why? Why can I not be myself and maybe some people will think that this is interesting, because perhaps otherwise they wouldn't have seen this. Maybe they wouldn't have followed accounts like that. Maybe. Maybe it wouldn't have been on their mind. And so I thought, I'm just gonna give this a go and see what happens and Maybe a social media strategist or someone would have told me to do something different? I don't know. But, you know, I, it was an interesting experiment. I've lost loads of followers. Yeah. Which I thought I would lose some. But I've lost a lot more than I thought, which I find interesting. And it's made me realise how much this conversation is needed because people have such a big problem with other people talking about sex. And at the same time, I've had a lot of encouragement, a lot of people messaged me and saying, it's great what you do. And I've had people come to me, who have followed me for running and they've said, Oh, I see you doing sex and relationship therapy. Actually, I have this problem. Maybe we can talk. Oh,

 

Catie Friend  35:45

wow. Fantastic.

 

Elisabet Barnes  35:47

And so, so so it's been good, as well. So overall, I would say it's been, it's been positive, but some people have probably, you know, spat their morning coffee out a few times.

 

Catie Friend  36:06

We all need to split our coffee occasionally.

 

Elisabet Barnes  36:11

But I like, you know, what I love to I sort of I love to provoke people as well. And and I, I think it's, it's necessary to do that. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you can't you can't have a voice about something, if you only wants to be liked. If all you do is for the purpose of being liked by other people, then I think there's something wrong with how you live your life, you know?

 

Catie Friend  36:39

Yeah, it's exhausting. Apart from anything else. Yeah, it's very sort of thing. Yeah, you can't, you can never know what other people are thinking or, you know, and so spending your life and I know, because I've spent large parts of my life worrying about what other people think. And I came to the conclusion that oh, you know, quite some time ago, no, thankfully that not everybody likes me. And I'm okay with that. Because I think if everyone liked me, I'd be a bit boring. Yeah. So. Um, yeah. So, and I think it is exhausting. As I say, just, you just can't know what other people are thinking. So you go around, assuming and then you change your behaviour because of something someone might or might not think. And you think, geez, I can't No, it's too It's too exhausting. Tell me, how is talking about sex having more sex, having the sex that you really want to have? How is? How is that a benefit to us? I mean, think it's probably clear, it makes us happier. But can you give us sort of scientific or, you know, physiological mental benefits of that?

 

Elisabet Barnes  37:39

Well, I mean, first of all, like having having sex, you know, being touched and having orgasms releases, a lot of you know, good female hormones in your body. And so it makes us feel happier and more relaxed. So, so that's, that's very good. I also think that for women in particular, I think it is, it's very empowering to be in charge of your pleasure, you know, to to claim it. Because women grow up with a lot of shame around sex. Maybe we don't even think about it. But you know, we're being told that if we like sex too much, or if we have many sex partners, then then we slots. You know, there is a lot more talk about men's masturbation and women's masturbation, you know, it's not something that you learn about in school, you know, sex education is, is about reproduction. It's not about pleasure. You know, most people don't even know the difference between a vagina and vulva or can point out the clicker is, you know, we know that there is a huge orgasm gap in terms of women orgasming, much less frequently in insects, the man do. And, you know, why is that? Why is it that we can't actually feel that we can own our bodies that it's okay to have pleasure that we can take responsibility for it and not place the responsibility on someone else for that, or don't, you know, not think that we deserve it or that it's shameful. And so I think actually, for a woman, having good sex, having fantastic orgasms, feeling like we deserve pleasure, and taking it, I think is very empowering. And I think it's very good for, you know, our self esteem and confidence and how we feel about our bodies in general. So I think it's something that if you can do that, it just enriches your life, and who you are and it sort of makes you like, glow. I mean, you can see a woman if she has good sex or not.

 

Catie Friend  39:52

I totally agree. I could not agree more. How would you how do you go about telling people say that have perhaps been married for a long time? Never been like that, even if they're not married, you know, even with different partners, that they've never taken that sort of control, or they're small steps that can be taken to getting more empowered in that way.

 

Elisabet Barnes  40:13

Yeah, I think I think there is maybe for everyone, it's kind of a different journey, because I think it depends what what lies behind your, your attitude to sex, your feelings about sex and your body? You know, it can be, yeah, I mean, it can be past trauma, or it can just be, you know, societal cultural norms, it can be religion, it can be that, you know, you haven't been in a particularly good relationship, you know, so it's, there are lots of things, but I think that there is so much material out there. Now. I mean, there, there are great books on this subject, there are YouTube videos, or podcasts, or inspiring social media accounts. So the information is actually out there. So it's about seeking it. And then it's, I think it's about connecting with your body, you know, and actually feeling good about your body, we have a tendency of pointing out our faults, you know, I have too much cellulite, my breasts are saggy or my vulva looks strange, or, you know, I don't know, there's like, all sorts of things. So I think starting to focus on positive things about yourself means that this is one thing, I mean, just stand there, look, look yourself in the mirror, and look at everything that's great about you and tell that to yourself out loud, while you look yourself in the eyes and do that every day. And you know, your perception of yourself is going to change, then don't feel ashamed about having pleasure, you know, masturbate, take responsibility for your own pleasure when you have sex with someone that's important.

 

Catie Friend  42:11

Yeah.

 

Elisabet Barnes  42:12

And maybe that's not so easy if that's not something you've done before. But I think that's also very important.

 

Catie Friend  42:19

Well, is it fairly big metaphor for life, especially for mums of my age, who are maybe coming out of the fog of motherhood, which is something I'm quite sort of big on, you know, and it's sort of, it's the, it's taking responsibility in general, for your own pleasure in life, you cannot rely on anybody else to make you happy. And it's something one of the things that was a huge revelation on revelation. But a realisation for me after I had my bit of a wobble last year, is that I can't expect other people to make me happy. It has to come from me. And that presumably, also translates as you say, into sex and masturbation and toys, and following toy Tuesday with great excitement, honestly. I'm glad. Because the thing is bed does toy Tuesday where she talks us through another sex toy, which we can all go out and enjoy. And talk to, just as we're talking about moms and women of my sort of age. I'm 47, though, so I'm heading Full Tilt into perimenopause. And then we'll come to menopause. And that itself presents a little bit of a challenge because libido is different. You suddenly your body is different. You're you it's a little bit like puberty in reverse, which nobody really talks about, like, ever. Huh? What what do you what do you sort of top tips for women at my kind of stage of life? The hormones and so on?

 

Elisabet Barnes  43:51

Oh, yes. I mean, I'm 43 and I'm, I'm, I think I'm coming into perimenopause. And I'm sort of, I've noticed some signs myself, and it's a little bit frustrating. I have seen I have seen a very good, very good doctor in London, who specialises in bioidentical hormone replacement. And that, that has helped me from the, from the hormonal side of things. It's been something that we can't ignore. I think it maybe becomes even more important to look after yourself in terms of looking at what you eat. I know I mean, for example, active women, we do a lot of sports. They need they need more more protein than before, for example, you know, we we lose lean muscle mass. And so it becomes more important to focus on getting the protein in on actually doing more heavy resistance training. Yes, and that's good. hormones good, you know, for metabolism. And,

 

Catie Friend  45:03

you know, also I think for feeling good about, you know, your body resisting some of those changes. Yeah. For the bone density and, and then inevitable or the inevitable sagging of your triceps.

 

Elisabet Barnes  45:16

Yeah, exactly. And, and in terms of that mean, for anyone who's listening and is an active woman of this age, I can really recommend Dr. Stacey Sims. And you can find her on on Instagram she is she has written a book because a few years ago, now she's written a book called a roar. And she has some other resources. And so so that's very good. I think. And then it's, I mean, look, from a diet perspective, there are so different supplements you can take, like, for example, adaptogens, like ashwagandha, for example, that I take some of those and I think it's been, it's been very helpful, it helps me to stay more more energised and to keep my mood a bit more, more even. So, but I think also, I don't know, I mean, what what would you say? So in your, a few years older, I mean, does it always have to do something with your, with your, with your attitude to, to life and to sex and to your body? And you know, what you decide is important?

 

Catie Friend  46:28

I think so I wrote a blog post about six weeks ago, two months ago about my body and how I genuinely one day just looked in the mirror and went, I love you. Because my Lord, I you know, it looks like any other middle aged woman's body, it's got saggy bits and droopy bits and you know, bits that are bits of cellulite, stretch marks. I've breastfed to children. You know, I was I've got huge scars on my legs from being born with dislocated hips. I've got wonky leg length difference. And I just thought to myself, do you know what this body is incredible. And the first time I realised that I mean, really, really realised it was when I finished the half marathon. And I, as you know, I was, well I'm still not a runner, I just learned to run to do that. And I was not brought up sporty, I didn't start doing sports, I was nearly 39 and I just looked at that my body blistered to all hell, but still going, and I could have kept going. And I felt amazing. And the attitude that was the exactly as you say, the attitude change was just look what my body did. And that the the advantage to starting sport at such a late age is that, you know, at 47 I'm not very fit at the moment, but I'm still getting stronger. I don't have any of the Oh, I can't do the things I did when I was 20 because I'm about 50 times fitter and healthier than I was when I was 20. And just hanging out for Friday night in the Student Union. And you know, I there's this attitude of, you know, my kids are big. And I've got so much I need to get on with I cannot be doing. I can't I haven't got time to be every time I catch a glimpse of myself in the mirror going. Well, dear, you know, and if my if my triceps wobble, my bingo wings wobble when I'm brushing my teeth, well, I just need to do some more, go and do some more exercise. And I do when I feel like you know, I don't. I'm not hard on myself, physically. And as in, I don't judge my body anymore. And the thing that's been really important for me, really important because your body does change after you've had kids. It does change, you know, over the years with hormones with everything. So yeah, for me, definitely. It has been an attitude thing that I just think you know what? Got me this far. And I've got a hopefully another 40 odd years of adventures left in this body. I just need to look after it and love it.

 

Elisabet Barnes  49:08

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm like you I'm I think I'm stronger than I've ever been, you know, and does my body look the same? Like it did 20 years ago? Well, no, it doesn't. But actually, there's there are parts of it that I think are much better. And I think that comes that comes down to how you choose to, to look at it, actually. Yeah, no, I agree. And, and when it comes to also when it comes to sex and that I think just like the body changes through the course of life, I mean, so that's our sex life and and how the body functions in that respect and maybe what we what we like and what we don't like and returns On and and sometimes maybe you just have to explore and and try and find something new, you know that maybe you hadn't thought of before or

 

Catie Friend  50:10

exactly particularly? Yeah, particularly if you've been with a partner for a very long time that, you know, it's easy to fall into habits with sex as it is with anything else, especially, you know, if you're got young kids in the house, and it's not something you can devote a whole whole lot of time to. Yeah, you know, it's a quick here and there. You know, it's important, I think, to try and have the conversation where you say, huh,

 

Elisabet Barnes  50:36

yeah, remember, when

 

Catie Friend  50:37

we first met,

 

Elisabet Barnes  50:40

there's a, there's a very good therapist called Esther parral. And she's written a couple of books. And she talks about, you know, there that there is this sort of kind of conflict between, you know, being being a couple and you know, having been married for a long time, like in marriage, we, we sort of see, safety and security and, and, of course, we want that, and we need that for our relationship to work. But on the other hand, sex and attraction requires, you know, excitement, anticipation, more like opposites. And so it's like a challenge that when, you know, when you grow too close together, how can you still keep some separation? How can you make things exciting? And but I think it all, it all starts with, with with communication and conversation and being able to talk about these things, and how,

 

Catie Friend  51:40

in your experience of talking to clients? How often is, is it simply the case that people are just too afraid or ashamed or embarrassed or conditioned? Just not to talk about things?

 

Elisabet Barnes  51:54

Oh, it's extremely common. It's extremely common. So many people don't talk about sex.

 

Catie Friend  52:02

bizarrely, even with the person that they're closest to.

 

Elisabet Barnes  52:04

Yeah. And what's so interesting about that, I think, is that is that if you if you can do it, if you can talk about sex, then I think you can talk about almost everything.

 

Catie Friend  52:16

I want to ask you, you know, when I was growing up, or I don't hear it so much, no, but it was always the stereotype that men thought about same sex every three seconds or something. I can't remember what the actual stat was. And in your experience, is it absolute codswallop that men think about sex more than women? Or is just that women don't say that they think about sex very often?

 

Elisabet Barnes  52:39

Yeah, I do think that, that as women, we are kind of taught that we shouldn't think about sex, and these, you know, all of these norms that we talked about before. So I think there is probably something, something in that. I mean, I kind of maybe I just fall into the norm and say, I think that maybe men think a little bit more about sex than women. But I'm sure but I know that there are women who think a lot about sex.

 

Catie Friend  53:10

And so tell me, what do you what are your plans, you're gonna, you're still studying, and you're going to be qualifying soon.

 

Elisabet Barnes  53:16

So I'll be a certified sexologist in April, and then certified couples therapist, bit later next year. Amazing.

 

Catie Friend  53:28

So that's the plan for just now and COVID. dependent. Are there any running races to be had?

 

Elisabet Barnes  53:34

Um, I don't think I will do an erasing simply because I just don't think I want to put my my body through that. I would love to race again. But I would love to race just for fun, you know, be the chapter one. And I think I can do that. But I don't think I can do that just yet. Just I mean, I can but I think I would come into a race like it. Some people don't people don't understand it. They think you can when you think you because you won the races, you're going to win every race you enter it doesn't work like that. But I know that it's it's it's very difficult. Many female ultra runners struggle, because you have to push your body so hard. And there is always someone who is willing to go beyond what's healthy in the short term, because they don't think that it's going to harm them long term. They just don't think it's going to happen to them. Unfortunately, it is going to happen to them. So the problem is you're competing with those people and I know that my body can't take that. So I think I'm gonna, you know, they basically say to myself, no, I don't have to put myself through that. So long answer, but no, I don't think I will do any races soon. But I will do training camps, depending on what happens with COVID. And I still do running coaching So I mean, I very much enjoyed that. And I actually think that even though I mean, I think in the longer term, I will focus more on the sexology on the couples therapy, I would like to think that what I'm doing now is a great benefit to my coaching clients in running because, right, you know, running doesn't exist in a vacuum. You know, most people have relationships, they have families, and they have a lot of things to navigate. And when you train for an ultra marathon, it's a big effort, it takes a lot of time, takes a lot of energy. And so actually, you know, having someone who understands all of that, and you know, those other dynamics around it, I

 

Catie Friend  55:44

think, is useful. And that's very useful. Because when I remember when I remember you said right back at the beginning, when you train for your first marathon, and it was so huge, which it is for when you train for your first one, because I remember, right back at the beginning of our relationship, Graham, trained for London Marathon, and I thought he was training for hours. And then he went to triathlon, and then he went to Ironman, and then went to ultra running. I just kept thinking, Oh, we should just go back to training for a marathon because they know the hours involved, and the amount of energy that goes into preparing for such huge efforts is really hard on family life. Yeah. And it's something that we have really struggled with over the years, especially as I'm mostly a full time stay at home Mum, he would be away working and then come home, and then need to be out on a, you know, for six, seven hour bike ride. And, you know, that is no longer the case, necessarily, but it was really hard, really, really hard for him. And for me, Well, you know, and, and I can see how having that both of those as a background would be very useful for runners and their partners. Hmm. Because it's very, yeah, it's very demanding.

 

Elisabet Barnes  57:00

Yeah, it is. It's not as it's not as simple as just being given a plan and follow it. You know, it's not it

 

Catie Friend  57:06

isn't. And especially I would say, as a mum, who was trying to, you know, training for things there comes, you know, that sort of having to do it within the timeframes of school hours, or, you know, picking up from wherever and activities and trying to, you know, and sometimes it just follow the plan you like? Yeah, okay, so I'm in Switzerland. Well, the children are home for two hours at lunchtime. So you know, it's just, yeah. Anyway, so we can get hold of you. We can follow you on Instagram. Elizabeth Barnes and your website. Yeah. So

 

Elisabet Barnes  57:42

my, so I have two Instagram accounts. So I have Elizabeth Barnes and then without an H, and then I have ultra coach. nights actually ultra dot coach. I think so anyway, that's that's that's just for for those people who are interested in running and don't want to hear anything about sex. You can go there, you're safe. And then my website is Elizabeth barnes.com. Brilliant. Well, I'll

 

Catie Friend  58:11

put that in the show notes. Make sure the spelling is all correct. It has been it has been, as I hoped, an absolute an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I love the breadth of things that we talked about. And I hope that it has been interesting for you, too. And I look forward to hearing about the next steps and all the avenues that you follow.

 

Elisabet Barnes  58:32

Thank you. Thank you, Kate. It was a real, real pleasure. Really enjoyed this conversation. And, and I think it's fantastic that you've started this podcast. So I wish you all the best of luck with it.

 

Catie Friend  58:43

Thank you very much. We'll speak to you another time. Hopefully.”