Chatting to Lucy Shepherd

In the 4th episode I am chatting to Lucy Shepherd, professional explorer and adventurer. Can you imagine that was your job title?

At only 28 years old, she has been at this for a decade and in that time has been on expedition from the Arctic to the Amazon on foot, on skis and always in extreme conditions.

Obviously, the chat centres around adventuring and sticky, near death situations and how to survive for two weeks on the side of a mountain in a snowstorm (by keeping busy, is the answer!)

We also touch on, however, how to cope with post-expedition blues, how the world views a young woman who has decided to make this her career and how she feels about the future of our planet that she cares so deeply about.

A funny, insightful and enthusiastic chat with some deeper messages for us all about how to bring a sense of pride and achievement into your life on a daily basis.

At 23, Lucy was made a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and is currently the youngest board member on the board of the Scientific Exploration Society, both titles she holds with great pride.

You can find more about Lucy on her website www.lucyshepherd.net, including information on how to go on expedition with her to the Arctic in 2021.

You can also follow her on Instagram on @lucysheps

Transcript

Please note that transcripts are automatically generated by articifical intelligence and may not be 100% accurate.

“SPEAKERS

Catie Friend, Lucy Shepherd

Catie Friend  00:02 In the fourth episode, I'm chatting to Lucy Shepherd, professional explorer and adventure. Can you even imagine that that was your job title. So cool. at only 28 years old. She has been at this for a decade and in that time has been on expedition from the Arctic to the Amazon, on food on skis. And always, in extreme conditions have funny, insightful and enthusiastic chat with some deeper messages for us all about how to bring a sense of pride and achievement into your daily life. At 23. Lucy was made a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and is currently the youngest board member of the scientific exploration society, both titles she holds with great pride. Hi, Lucy, thanks for joining me today.

Lucy Shepherd  02:38

Hi, thank you very much for having me.

Catie Friend  02:39

It's very exciting to have you on I'm just been reading your website and it's it's so exciting. It's just like a girls on adventure list of amazing places and things to do around the world.

Lucy Shepherd  02:51

Ya know, I like to I definitely like to get around.

Catie Friend  02:54

And so as I said in my intro, 28 years old, but already a decade of exploring and adventuring under your belt. Can you give us well, I'm going to do a quick rundown of what I have understood the Arctic Alps, Norway, Bolivia, the Amazon, Iceland, Russia, Alaska, I'm sure there are more. But you know, so lots of different types of adventure. So ski mountaineering, cross country skiing, tracking, even adventure racing, which is a whole myriad of adventures in itself. Could you give me your top three, and why they were so exciting.

Lucy Shepherd  03:30

I'll give it a go. The ones that come to mind, I mean, the most recent expedition, luckily, I managed in 2020 to get away. At the start of this year, I did a big Trek and traverse across a part of the Amazon rainforest. And it was just me and five other Amerindian guys. And it was just such a special expedition for many reasons. One of the way nothing like that had been done before the dynamic between myself and the Amerindians was very, very special. And the jungle was always somewhere that I never found very well, no one finds it comfortable. But I out of all the sort of disciplines and areas and environments, I always found it quite intimidating. But this time, I felt like you know, I'd cracked it. And now I can't wait to get back to the jungle. And that sort of opened up, you know, endless possibilities now. So that was a very, very, very good expedition. And also one that I thought was going to be quite a small adventure last year. Ski mountain aired across the high Sierras and it was just myself, my climbing partner and boyfriend Tim, and also one of our very good friends who we climbed Denali with Matt. And we originally saw it was going to be sort of a short you know, less than a week, adventure skiing these beautiful mountains climbing up so the straightforward just east west, and it was anything but it was so treacherous, treacherous. There was so many things that came out of that and there were times that were really That one, we might not make it ourselves. But to you know, we might we may have had to turn around and things like that. And as a result, it just became such a proud moment. And I think our, our sort of team spirit together was something that I really hold closely in my, in my heart, it was such a such a great experience. And it's always best when you share things. I'm a strong believer of that. And I suppose the final final number three, what would that be, I think, probably my first ever expedition because that kick started it all. And that was to Svalbard for 10 weeks in up in the Arctic. And that was sort of the first time I realised that this is something that something that I was relatively good at something that I was very eager to learn more about. And that just started it all. Really 10 weeks of the Arctic's does that T,

Catie Friend  05:51

that's incredible. 10 weeks from from never having experienced it before. You just said that you knew you were good at it. What does that mean? How does one know that one is good at adventuring, and, you know, living in remote parts of the world?

Lucy Shepherd  06:05

I think if you enjoy it, if you enjoy aspects of it, that other, you know, are challenging, but you take that you take that on board, and you enjoy that part of it as much as the other part. You accept that as part of it, then that's a real good, that's a good starting point, I think. And I'd never you know, I've never been particularly good at anything much really growing up. And then at 18, I went off to this Arctic expedition. And I'd always been a fan of the likes of when he started when I was a teenager in a bear grylls no one really knew of him. And I was reading these books and that, you know, opened the doors to run, I'll find some people like that. And I've read all these books, and I've read these this word expedition. And his word expeditions have sounded so magical and mysterious. And I didn't I was at the age where I didn't really think that that was something that I could do or that people even still did expeditions. And then I think it was age 1617 saw an advert in the paper for this 10 week spellbind expedition. And it said expedition and I sort of said, You know, I can go on an expedition, but that has sort of created this imagination, and excitement and enthusiasm, just even preparing for something like that, because that's as much as the of the adventure as the adventure itself. Isn't that you know, there's a lot of preparation. Absolutely. So, ya know, as soon as I was on an expedition with myself, I felt like I was sort of in a storybook.

Catie Friend  07:35

That is incredible. Because you do think these days, there must be nowhere in the world that people haven't gone before an expedition sort of, as you say, especially as a youngster perhaps but even though you'd think, Oh, really? Is there anything people haven't done or haven't been at sort of conjures up men and woollen suits and dying on the side of the Eiger, that kind of thing? Yeah. And so how do you come up with what you want to do? Because obviously, that was something you saw and you joined, but presumably, do you set your own agenda as much as possible?

Lucy Shepherd  08:09

Yeah, I mean, that was the only one really, that was sort of pre organised, you know, expedition. And ever since then, I realised that I wanted to go to the places that were more remote. And, you know, that people hadn't done it necessarily done before very few had. And I think for me, when I'm trying to decide I get, I get a sort of gut feeling and something in my heart, I suppose that this urgency when I've decided, like, that's it, I've got to go very quick at deciding where I want to go. And then I don't like it to be very much sort of too long from the preparation point to going. So if it's very remote, that's a big part. If I haven't heard of it, that's a big bonus. There's lots of lots of places or areas in countries that I've never heard of. And then if it's got a big journey, which attracts me, but for I mean, you say that people do think that there's nothing left to explore there. So I mean, as you know, so untrue. There are so many parts of wealth, the sea, the ocean is the obvious one, but then even the jungles where I was in the Amazon. Yes, people had been in and out of that area, but no one there was no records or anything. And I was with our Indians who they were under the impression that no one had done what we were doing. We were going into that whole expedition, not knowing how long it would take. It was very unknown. We ever soon as we stepped foot into that deep jungle, it was very much like okay, this is up to us. This is we just have to take each day as it goes. And by doing that, you know, it would be very demoralising. If you actually had a proper plan, because the jungle throws everything at you. Yeah, there'd be days where you're only doing two kilometres when you use that's it. It's ridiculous and you say two kilometres In 810 hours, but you just have to just have to roll with it and accept that that's the kind of thing that the jungle environment leads to.

Catie Friend  10:08

Do you think that? I mean, Have you always been a patient person, there must be an element of patience in these sorts of urgency crossed with patients, because as you say, two kilometres in eight hours is sown, soul destroying, but perhaps you as you say, you have to roll with it and understand that that in itself is an achievement. Yeah, I

10:30

know, I would, I would classify myself as a patient person. And just know if you know, if something is out of your control, then you have to accept that with everything. And that goes with weather conditioning conditions, when you're climbing that goes with like, how you're feeling. I mean, if it's something so bad that you can't control it, then you just have to calculate what you can control and figure out what you what you can do from then on, and then go from there everything.

Catie Friend  10:58

Yeah, talking of which I read on your website about having been stuck in a tent for two weeks on the side of Denali.

Lucy Shepherd  11:05

Yes,

Catie Friend  11:06

that sounds insane. People say that.

Lucy Shepherd  11:10

I like honestly, that, that two weeks, I really it just bled into what I can't remember being that board at all. It's very strange. I think I was a bit delirious.

Catie Friend  11:20

Tell us about that. What How did that come about? And how did you feel? And how did you keep up morale and all that sort of stuff?

Lucy Shepherd  11:27

Well, Denali is so denied in Alaska. And it's known for having these mega storms. And myself and three others, three friends who has a team of four, started planning this expedition. And I sort of took on quite a lot of the logistics side of things. And everything I was reading about not only capturing when these storms that last, you know, they can last days. And sometimes they would even last 10 days or something like that. And I was reading this and but then I found it a bit confusing that a lot of teams, when they went, they would only take sort of 21 days of food, so they would expect it. And that would be allowing for, you know, a storm. But that didn't make much sense to me. Because if you want us to give your best, your best crack at the mountain, need to take as much food as you possibly can. In case this happens. Especially as you know, you take a sled or poke halfway up the mountain anyway. Okay, and before you start the climb, and so we decided to take as much food as we could possibly take, which I think was 32 days in the end. So 11 more days, 11 days more than others would take. And would you believe it, as soon as we set off, it's bright blue sky, and it's beautiful weather, you know, cold, we're freezing, but just lovely. And then we think we're going quite slow to go this food. And then we reach 14,000 foot camp, and the weather starts to roll in. And it starts to get in minus 40. And then the winds start to pick up and then snow starts to come and you're constantly digging out your tent. Because it's just, you know, you're getting you keep sinking into the snow so much and getting piles of snow on top of you. And then the days just started rolling by and rolling by and you know, other teams were really struggling and having to risk going back down the mountain because they didn't have enough food. Or they would be starving attend knowing that as soon as the sun came out that they would have to go down instead of going up. But yeah, we were sort of happy as Larry just sitting sitting in our tent, eating our rations, having a rest. I donate to it. I mean two weeks in it's one of the hilleberg tents so I mean, if you're on Denali is so cold if you're not moving, it's frighteningly cold so you're either in your sleeping bag or doing something otherwise it's just a bit of a panic quick. Okay, so yeah, just spent a lot of my time either digging out the snow or melting a lot of snow because it takes a long time to melt the water for your food and melt the snow sorry for your food and water. Or Yeah, in my sleeping bag. But

Catie Friend  14:03

it sounds like excellent preparation for lockdown beings.

14:08

right a lot of napping.

Catie Friend  14:12

Amazing and and relationships between the team were fine. Everybody played their part. Nobody freaked out. Yeah, I

14:20

mean, so I was in a tent with Tim and then there were the other tent had to Matt and will. And there would be days went by that we didn't actually see them well, but we'd be shouting to them through the walls. And yeah, I think everyone was just as patient and accepting You know, this is, this is where we are. We knew this was going to be tough. You know, the best as long as everyone is okay and healthy. And that's the most important thing and I am definitely very keen or I always go with like minded team members. No egos just don't exist, that that can't be a thing. I cannot go with people who you know, will go go gung ho and will do Anything to reach that summit or whatever. So I think as long as we're all caring for each other, and everyone's looking after each other, and you know, if someone needs to stop, and whether it be a blister or adjusting something that will make whatever we're doing the climb or ski more comfortable than they do it. And I think we make, I think setting that out early on expectations is very, very important, then you can't really go wrong.

Catie Friend  15:25

It is very important to understand how you behave under duress I yeah, I have experience of that. Not two weeks on the side of a mountain, I hasten to add, but so you've mentioned a couple of times, already. So when you felt near death, and how you feel about that, because I also read your report about the or I heard what you talking about the first time you were in Ghana, and they were stoked by the Jaguar? Obviously, you and I watched your video about being in the high Sierras. And you know, some sketchy moments I know mountains and I know the fear of thinking. I don't know if we will get out of this. Yeah. And obviously there have been other times perhaps you didn't feel near death on Denali, but it must have started to feel like a flipping long time being stuck there. What do you do? Do you have self talk? Do you distract yourself? How do you cope with that level of this could be it.

16:23

I think a lot of it comes down to before I even leave. So I spend a lot of my time. As soon as I've decided on the expedition, I spend a lot of my time mentally preparing. I'm not it's not so much on purpose, but I do it. I think I do it naturally I start to think okay, what will it feel like if this happens, or if we are on the side of a mountain, and we have misjudged it, and it's avalanche risk or, you know, wild animals or things like that. So I stopped putting daydreaming and putting myself in that scenario. And thinking, you know, how would I cope. And I think I always sort of kept the same way I sort of go, Oh, I thought this would happen, or I didn't actually think this would happen. But now it's happening, I better get on with it. And it's happened, it does happen quite a lot. And I think the only time where I've really started to think this is this is too much and start to feel bad for my family and the people that you leave behind was when I was climbing in Tajikistan, and because everything about that just felt wrong. I'm very strong believer about trusting your gut and trusting your instinct. And if it's all been fine up until a small point, then there's like, like I was talking about earlier, you know, it's out of your control, you know that you go to these places. And there are these risks. And you take that sort of accepting factor and being focused and just doing what you can to eliminate any risks. But if you've had that I can take gigas down, I had a constant bad feeling about the whole thing that I guess gives you more time to think about it. And that guilt and sort of, yeah, just thinking I did it. This is not a place where I want to die.

Catie Friend  18:03

Strange, you should mention that I've actually heard other people who have been in these situations very, very real near death, on expeditions or on adventures. And that is what they think about they think about the people that they love and what a disaster this will be for them. Not about I'm gonna die. That Yeah, just thinking about thinking, Oh, man, it'd be terrible. Yeah, like, What

18:30

a shame. Because I think I actually had the most recent one because I did the Amazon this year. And there was there was one day in particular, that was absolutely terrifying. But because there was so much to think about on that day, and to make sure I didn't die. I there wasn't much time to think like that. But actually, when I've completed that expedition, I had to get a very, very small plane back to the city, which I've done before, and it's been absolutely fine. But in my gut, there was something wrong about this plane. And I've been on helicopters that just I later found out that the pilots who are flying it were not actually pilots. And this I started to get a similar feeling and the weather came in. And suddenly it was that the monsoon weather in the cloud with mountain jungle mountains everywhere and the plane was jumping all over the place. And I was just thinking, you know, cross this whole mountain. Now I'm gonna you know, we've been celebrating that completed this expedition now for goodness sakes, I think and then just started to think how are those people that came I remember trying to put my iPod on and I was like, chasing the music thinking this will take my mind off it. That's an unbelievable amount of music that has the word fall, or goodbye or you know, it's lovely to him. It's been lovely to be here. Now it's time to go and things like that. I just couldn't get it.

Catie Friend  19:59

And so you will just build up a huge amount of sort of adrenaline and cortisol. And, and I know from my own sort of adventures that there's there are two sides to that disappearing one is the sort of post event blues of, well, normal life feels a bit dull. Yeah. And obviously, there's a slight, sometimes there's a slight relief that, well, all the planning and all the journey and all that everything is over. And I can just sort of sit and drink a cup of tea. Yeah. But also, you know, that sort of stuff builds up in your system, you know, and it can become a addictive and be not terribly good for you, because there's that all the, you know, the sympathetic, parasympathetic nervous system where your body is in constant fight or flight because it's so used to the adrenaline hits, how do you come down from events or events, expeditions and stuff so that you feel safe and ready and healthy enough to start again? Well,

20:58

I think, because of from my first expedition to Svalbard, and when I came back from that I hit the sort of post expedition blues, like you talked about, like, I hit it hard. And because I've never really experienced that before, and I mean, it was the stuff sort of eating disorder, I was very miserable to be around, you know, I started getting addicted to running to fill that gap and things like that. So I, for about, you know, six months, to then lemonade sort of lasted for a couple of years, really? I had this feeling of Wow. You know, because everyone kept saying about that expedition, you know, Wow, what an amazing once in a lifetime experience. And they say that when you get back, and to hear that, after you finish something, as if that's it, you know, that's the best it can be like, now you're off to university and get a real job. Yeah, real life starts now.

21:53

And they

21:54

kept saying that, like, you know, refuse to believe that that would be the case, and I never wanted to, you know, join the military or anything like that. So that wasn't an option, then that seemed like the only option, you know, from the people that you read about you do this thing. So I did accept that that might be that might be it, and I have to find my find the kick elsewhere. But it was actually sort of meeting Neal Norton, who I know is a mutual friend of ours, he gave me this sort of self belief that actually, I could take this further, and I could keep doing it. When I saw that he was still doing it, you know, he'd been doing things, you know, all the time, that gave me the confidence to believe that actually, you know, there is this whole world out there of people doing these things met, I can tap into it, I just have to figure out how to fundraise, I have to figure out how to get the skills and go from them. And so now every time I returned from an expedition, I prepare myself for it. And I sort of reflect on I sort of start to relive it. And I also film every expedition. And so by filming it, I then come back. And when I get back a few weeks after I get back, I'll start editing it and go through the footage, and I sort of relive it that way.

Catie Friend  23:08

So yeah, I start sort of post processing it

23:12

there. And you start to think because because you're so on edge, the whole not on edge, but you're so alert and thinking about the present constantly, when you're there, you don't actually realise what an incredible experience it was until you get back.

Catie Friend  23:25

Seems a bit of a shame, doesn't it? is proper type to fun

23:30

100% type deal?

Catie Friend  23:34

And when do you often get asked? Do you still get asked? When are you going to get a real job? When are you going to settle down? When are you going to you know, because you've been doing this for decades. So you've pretty much proved that this is a something you can do are good at but also that you can sustain a life doing? Do you still get asked about that?

23:53

I mean, I think it depends it's very much a reflection of the person if they're asking it now. So if they are you know, I think you don't really get our pity in that same world if that sort of thing. So when you're going to like push it like they presume that as soon as you start family or something like that, then that's it you stop was like, when's that ever been the case for you know, men never met have never been asked her. So, I mean, I remember my parents for comfort for the first couple years start to think you know, this can't last forever. And then things started to come from it and skill level went up and actually now they they look at the pictures when I get back and they realise Oh, they have for some time they realise that the smile on my face on those pictures i can't i it's not the same smile as it is in in day to day life. It's definitely a very, very happy proud you they smile out there. You can't hide the outdoors.

Catie Friend  24:51

That sounds amazing. And in terms of friendships, obviously now you have a very firm well I hope you have a firm base of friendship base. On your adventures and people that you can do these sorts of things with, but at the age of 18, when you decided to sort of take on this thing, or when you were leaving University saying, Yeah, I'm just going to go off and tackle the world. Yeah, did people? You know, you you mentioned you touched on the once in a lifetime opportunity? Did? Did you have friends who got it? Or was it just quite hard to find people who weren't? You know, I've heard before of adventurers and explorers and things saying that people got a little bit. No, well, I'm settling down to real life. So you should be too and there's a kind of envy and a little bit of, you know, not it's not much fun, because there's this sort of clash between what they think they should do and what you that you want to do. Yeah, I

25:42

mean, I think for a while, people, a lot of people thought it was just sort of an extended holiday, which really, really got to me, because it's like, well, I know what you're saying, because it's it, you know, for me, it is something that I get secondary enjoyment from, but it's also a sort of career and lifetime thing that I'm doing. And I would I think I'm very I'm a firm believer about, you know, I think people have talked about this before, but people are either drains, or radiators, I think is the idea. So the people who can either drain the energy from you, and you really feel it if I start talking about some expedition, and I very rarely will start talking about expeditions, because I am aware that people and the, you know, the wrong sort of people don't want to hear about them. I don't want to have you know, I don't want to share anything with people. People aren't interested at all, of course. But if someone sucks the energy out of you, then you have to question why you know why hanging around with them in the first place, you should definitely we should all try to radiate energy and give off enthusiasm and try and motivate others. So as I guess, it started to make me think, you know, who am I friends with? And who are my closest pals? You know, if they're encouraging for this, because they see it's something that I can't really live live without them. And that's, that's what you want, really?

Catie Friend  27:07

And do you get the opportunity to pass this on to young people? No, because it's something that, especially in these crazy COVID times, you know, people are stuck a lot of the time with the people that they're stuck with? Yeah, do you get the opportunity? Or do you take the opportunity when you can to sort of express this to people that you know, finding the right community, finding the people that support you, and, you know, love you for all your craziness. And as you say, radiate energy, is that something you are able to pass on?

27:42

I am actually starting a sort of flog on YouTube, because, you know, we're all stuck at home. So I'm actually starting something to share this knowledge while I while I'm here in my house, and other people are stuck in their house, you know, what, what can we all do to try and get through this together? But I mean, when I do these, that I haven't been doing the recently, but when I'm doing them in person, these talks, you can really feel it's often the quiet ones. And it's the ones that don't ask the questions. When you sit with the with the questions at the end, they come up to you. And they've got that twinkle in their eye that I remember having when I would watch someone that would give you data. I mean, it's not much it just gives you something to think, oh, maybe I can. Maybe I can do that. And it might not be to do with adventure at all. But it might just be everyone needs a little motivation and self belief. And everyone needs to top it up all the time. I said, I always need to talk about and things I exercising every day is a very good way to do that. And that tops tops your sort of throws away you think about yourself all the time, doesn't it? As soon as she stopped doing exercise for a day, two days or more. I mean, I feel my productivity. And my forward thinking definitely definitely goes down a

28:57

lot.

Catie Friend  28:58

Absolutely. And I I've had a while I was not sporty at all till I was nearly 40. And then I just sort of went and did some big stuff. But I it's still not it is still not part of my makeup. I find it so hard. I have to make myself exercise because I know that it's good for me. And I know that I feel better afterwards. Whereas I'm married to an exercise addict who if he doesn't do something, you know, as you say, two days without exercise, and he's like a bear with a sore head. Yeah, yeah, things like that. And also, I was listening to one of you it seems to be in a year of podcasts for you. I was listening to a podcast you did earlier in the year. And you said something that really resonated with me, which was finding out finding where you are happiest. And what makes you happiest and do more of that.

29:52

Yeah, yeah. And it doesn't have like, for me, obviously I love being in the Arctic and the jungles. Can't do that every day. How to Cook. But what is that feeling that you get from that, and it is not, it is most often a feeling of feeling proud of yourself and feeling no discontent and they're satisfied with how things are going. So if you can figure out what, you know, on a small scale, what does that for you. And then you can do that whenever you feel like you need a little bit more.

Catie Friend  30:24

A bit of I couldn't agree more, because just to sort of link back the two things that you've just said one about the the people who are listening, but don't ask questions until the end. And that feeling proud of yourself when I was about 25 or six, I heard Chris moon speaking. And I don't know if you know who he is. But he was a former British soldier who got kidnapped by the Khmer Rouge. He lost an arm and leg in a landmine explosion. And I mean, His story is just incredible. And I heard him speak. And he talked about that. And he talked about going on to complete the marathon disarmed. And just this part of me that was like, just completely speechless at the wonder and thinking and it sparked something in me at the time, I was hard working. So hard drinking, just, you know, partying and didn't really do any sports. So I kind of tucked it away. Yeah, and then something, almost 20 years later, I find myself a middle aged mother of two, running in the very first half marathon to sub, you know, in the deserts of the Canary Islands. Yeah. And finishing with that feeling of, Oh, my God, I cannot believe I managed to do that. But I can imagine. And, and I wrote at the end of my blog fight, find something that makes you feel this good. Yeah. And just keep doing it. It's the most extraordinary feeling. And I can understand why you keep searching for it. Even though there are obviously very real reasons why you do what you do. And I'm coming back to that. But it's just that that searching for that feeling

32:05

is and you can get it like I if even if you're just doing a hard running session or something up a hill, I found myself I think, just off to the Arctic when I was doing a lot of running. And I would go back to feeling like if it was hard that that run in particular, I would think, Hey, you know, you've, you've done this architect, you know, you can do this, feel proud of yourself, like, just believe in yourself. And if you can feel proud of yourself, and there's no better person to look up to. So you should always look up to yourself. And that doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's your past self. And if you're not your current self, you know, you can get back there. So to just keep keep finding that feeling, and then you can't exactly, it is addictive, it is

Catie Friend  32:51

it but I find it, I also get it if when I get up in the morning, kids are at school, and I tackle the most annoying thing of the day. Well, I don't always but on the days that I do, I think hey, check it out. And then, like 12 hours longer than I mean, I

33:12

have a saying that I first came came to learn it in the in Svalbard. And it's Don't lose your boldness. And what that sense essentially means is, as soon as you know the thought, or the word, I can't be bothered pops into your head. And that can be about anything that could be about taking the bins out or offering accountable this change the sheets or think things. As soon as it happens, it obviously is going to be a burden if you don't do it for the rest of the day. So do it straightaway. So my rule is as soon as I started, obviously can't I'm not hit superhero, I can't do it all the time. But as soon as I think you know, I can't be bothered, then I just got to rip off the bandage. And, you know, go go and do it straight away. And that makes the day or the task so much better. And on expedition it can be a life or death scenario. You know, even if it's a cannonball, all my, my crampons slightly loose, we have all this fear right now because I'm going to if I do it now then everyone will have to stop or

34:07

I won't get to catch up.

34:09

And there's this whole I mean, you must know it. There's this constant thing when you're with a team and you're not wanting to hold people back. But you. So if something happens that actually you would benefit from sorting, but it might be a bit of a faff, and it might cause a bit of strain. Just do it. Otherwise, something much worse could happen. And I'm sure lots of things that happen when things go wrong. It's always once lots of small things going wrong. Well,

Catie Friend  34:35

I do know that because I did ski mountaineering race the Petro diglossia from Zermatt to verbi a couple of years ago with two very good friends of mine and we'd been through the hole how do we react? What do we do if someone's got a problem? We wanted each other to you know, we wanted to talk about it. If someone was too hot, too cold, getting a blister you know, not feeling it, whatever it might be. We were We were we made a team decision that we would always I always listened to the other person that was having a bit of an issue and we would stop or we would help, or we would fix or whatever.

35:07

And these are the conversations that people have to have have. And they don't always they don't always have these things. And that is where things care for.

Catie Friend  35:13

And what exactly because halfway through the race, I was feeling we were all on tip top form, we'd had our ups and downs. And I was thinking, it's not as hard as everybody thinks. But I had stopped drinking water, because my CamelBak wasn't letting water out. Yeah, I assumed because it was, like three in the morning at 3000 metres, that it was frozen. And I had another little juice pack, and you know, like a little sort of energy drink thing. So I was drinking away at that. And I just kept thinking, I'll be fine. It'll be fine. It'll be fine. Yeah, it'll be fine. And four hours later, I still hadn't said anything, even though I was the teammate whose job it was to say, no, it's time to drink. Now it's time to eat. And I kept thinking, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Because tiredness makes you stupid. Well, it makes me stupid. And it was a lesson I learned really hard way because I suddenly jiggled my pack. And actually, it had just been kinked. And there was nothing wrong with it. But by that stage, I was massively dehydrated and going as rate of a tortoise. Yeah, which affected the rest of the team. And fortunately, there also there were also lovely, they didn't hold it against me. But it was you're absolutely right, these things. You have to you just have to fix it. Yeah.

36:29

Just fix it. Just stop it and sort it out there. And then.

Catie Friend  36:33

Yeah, and I wanted sort of touch on you a little bit about the baldness, because there was also it was accompanied by a quote by David Attenborough about that, you know, I can't remember the exact quote, but it's about people won't bother, don't care about the things that they haven't seen or experienced. Yeah. And loosely, quote, and obviously, you are a Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society, you're on the council, the scientific exploration society. So a couple of things come out of that for me. One is, how do you stay bothered, but not become overwhelmed? Because it's so huge. I watched David Attenborough's new film The other night, and I thought, Oh, you're doomed.

37:14

Yeah.

Catie Friend  37:15

How do you keep that bothered? I will keep the second question for after you answer this. But how do you keep that sense of urgency without thinking, I'm so overwhelmed, I can't do anything.

37:24

And I honestly think that the younger people who are coming up now, there's a lot that they mean, we should give the power to them. They give me a lot of hope. And I mean, I know we all know that the technology is there to make a greener planet. It wasn't there maybe 10 or 15 years ago, but it is now and it does just need some bit of investing. But I think people's people's minds are changing. And change is coming. And whether the government does it or whether it's people based through businesses and big companies. I'm very, I'm very optimistic about things. I know, the world seems a bit of a very shadowy grey place right now with everything that's going on. But I do think we will come out of this. And I do I mean, I think there'll be a lot of things that we will lose. And I unfortunately think that species more species will of course, be lost. And rain forests will be kept close, and they're near gone. But I think at the end of the day, we've we have to, and so we will, and I'm seeing changes every day, and it sort of fills me with joy. I mean, even going up to Scotland, last week, since last time I went, which was six months ago. So the amount of more wind turbines and things like that that have gone up. It's incredible. Like it's filled with it. And if we just keep getting it, we have to rapidly do more, of course, but I just yeah, I mean this, this world is too beautiful and to special. It's the only home we've got to not do something. So I hope that the greed and the sort of selfishness can be put aside and we can hopefully all work together as on a global scale, because that's essentially what needs to happen.

Catie Friend  39:10

What exactly and what do you bring back? So do you attach sort of investigating, I suppose is perhaps not the right word. But presumably, you know, you were away in Ghana in a place where people had never been before. Do people ask you to bring back evidence of what's there, what's not there anymore, or so on.

39:33

And so during that expedition, I was at as long as well as the journey itself. I was collecting every stream or every river water source I went by. I was taking water, water and sediment samples. And so the arrow is in a scene. It's very it's in the Kentucky mountains and it's seen as very isolated and it's protected and it's the they're very proud of the area. But because it's so high off, it's sort of you know, the Doesn't necessarily get polluted. That's what they think. I was taking water samples to look for microplastics in the water and sediment, because obviously we're finding these things up in the Arctic. And it's basically snowing. microplastics. So I mean, I because of COVID things, the research at the lab is on hold, but it will be very interesting to see what the results are and how bad it's got up there. So here, we have to find out how like whether it's just on the edges of the mountains, or whether it's got right into the into the depths of of it.

Catie Friend  40:34

And did you carry samples the whole way, then?

40:37

Yep. Yes.

40:39

No, you know, the bags got heavier. And yeah.

Catie Friend  40:42

Which is not normal on expedition. You normally get lighter food and

40:47

exactly litres and litres of water.

Catie Friend  40:50

Wow. Oh, that's amazing. Incredible. And so what is next on the agenda? Obviously, we are a little bit in hiatus for adventures. And I think you're probably very lucky. And one of the few that's been able to get away on expedition this year.

41:04

Yeah, I mean, I was actually meant to be guiding quick few Arctic expeditions. But of course, postponed and hopefully they'll go ahead next year. So that is sort of straightaway on the list, as well as I meant to be learning how to paraglide because it just makes getting off the mountain much easier. So I meant to be getting off to Spain to do that. But that might be postponed a few weeks, slash few months because of the current COVID. But the the big expedition that I'm planning is actually back to Guyana to do something else, something bigger than could take as long as three months. Sure. And so just trying to get the funding and hopefully might have recently got a little bit of a bite for that. So hopefully I can get that sorted and start planning for autumn next year.

Catie Friend  41:59

And when you say you're guiding so people can join you on some of your expeditions.

42:04

Yes, that's right. So one of my friends who is Norwegian live has a company up in Northern Norway, called touch today. And I started guiding with her last year. And we are going to be doing well. If all goes well, we'll be doing more trips across the fence market, a plateau in Norway, north south and west waste, but also in Svalbard as well. So I'm either with her or I might be on my own or with someone else. So we'll see.

Catie Friend  42:34

And that information can be found on your website.

42:37

Yep. So I mean, they can anyone can email me or there's a little join me tag, which is the expedition for Svalbard that was meant to be this year, but it will be very similar. So in the next year, and it's a very affordable, it's very, very extreme expedition, like it is very extreme. And we take novices, but we ease people in you know, we do the admin and the cooking to start with navigation, then gradually hand the reins over when we feel the team is confident enough, and we take up to eight people. And it's incredible to see the difference in in the team at the end. And I have just like we were talking about earlier, I talked to them about, you know, you're gonna get back, you feel like you're on cloud nine at the moment that you'll get back and you nothing would have changed. You know, it's only been a week or two weeks, but nothing would have changed in you know, your family would be the same. The milk might still be in the fridge or whatever, but you feel very, very, very different. And so it's sort of coaching them, you know, you might get the expedition's

43:35

blues but go back

43:36

to how you feel right now remember, you can capture this feeling and go back to it anytime you feel like that.

Catie Friend  43:41

And so anybody from any walk of life, sort of anyone reasonably fit and yet excited about doing something pretty hardcore.

43:51

Yeah, the main the main thing is enthusiasm and up for

Catie Friend  43:54

it. And then we'll take you the rest of the way. Brilliant. And so we can find out on your website, which is

44:00

at Lucy Shepherd dotnet usage Shepherd

Catie Friend  44:03

dotnet. And on Instagram,

44:05

it's Lucy ships, but also the I will be starting a proper YouTube channel in the coming weeks as well. Well, I'll be sharing tips and advice and chatting to other inventors and things like that.

Catie Friend  44:17

Brilliant. Well, I look forward to that especially as you being a filmmaker your your films are of a higher quality than some other self filmed films we've seen over the years. It's brilliant. I really, really enjoyed having a good old look at those living vicariously through you. Lucy, thank you so much for joining me honestly that it's just brilliant. I'm staring out at the flipping rain again. But thinking Oh, I just want to get out and go on an adventure. So thank you so much for joining me.

44:47

I thank you and then it's got my sort of adventure bug backup by talking about it. So yeah, I can't wait to get out again.

Catie Friend  44:54

Brilliant. Well, all the very best and we will hear more about your adventures. In the years to come, I'm absolutely sure.

45:03

Perfect. Thank you very much.

Chatting to Vedangi Kulkarni

Warning: some strong language

In this episode I’m talking to Vedangi Kulkarni, the youngest woman to circumnavigate the world by bike (unverified). At 19 she set off on her own, largely unsupported, to cycle round the world and take on the challenge of a lifetime.

En route, she faced ice, snow, muggings, tears and concussion as well as a true appreciation of what it meant to have friends who really care and strangers who helped when she needed them most.

We talk about her childhood, growing up in India as an only child with a self-conscious start to friendships and whose parents gave her the gift of travelling, both of which stood her in good stead as she initially moved to the UK for university and then took on bigger and bigger adventures.

We discuss the transition from awkward teenager to a young woman who has matured into striking up conversations with strangers and having a newfound appreciation for the closeness of people who “get her”.

You can find out more about Vedangi on www.vedangikulkarni.com and follow her on Instagram @wheelsandwords. Her adventure consultancy, The Adventure Shed, can be found at www.theadventureshed.com

 Jenny Tough’s book, Tough Women Adventure Stories, is available on Amazon and in my opinion is absolutely brilliant and a little nuts!

Many thanks to Vedangi for her candid and hilarious stories.

Transcript

Please note transcripts are automatically generated by artificial intelligence so may not be 100% accurate

“SPEAKERS

Vedangi Kulkarni, Catie Friend

Catie Friend  00:02

Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries and how they keep healthy, happy and sane. Today, I'm chatting to wpdandy Kulkarni, who is a 22 year old adventurer traveller who loves spending time in the outdoors and pushing her comfort zone. In 2018. she rode 29,000 kilometres around the world in 159 days, becoming the youngest woman to have circumnavigated the world on a bicycle. She was 19 when she started and 20 when she finished, and it was a mostly solo and unsupported journey. I am absolutely thrilled to have her dangi on the show with me today. Hi, Danny, thanks so much for joining me today on chatting to a friend. How are you?

Vedangi Kulkarni  01:03

I'm good. Thank you for having me. How are you?

Catie Friend  01:06

Very well. Thank you. Absolute pleasure to have you on. So obviously, you have had many adventures, one of which was a very grand adventure as Alistair Humphreys would call it cycling around the world 29,000 kilometres. I just want to talk to you about sort of how this has or what you were like before has this changed in relation to your friendships, relationships with other people meeting people around the world? I understand that you travelled a lot, as a child with your parents. Do you think that was something that helped form your ideas and your interest in meeting people around the world?

Vedangi Kulkarni  01:46

Yeah, certainly, certainly. I travel a lot as a like when I was growing up, yes, I travelled a lot. But also, my father used to work abroad. And the fact that every year to kind of spend 20 days in the house and 20 days, somewhere in the world, in the middle of an ocean or somewhere. And every time he has to come back here to tell all the stories of the new people who joined there, or, you know, whatever happens in the middle of ocean, he was just like telling me all about it. And I was like, oh man, like, it sounds so cool that it meets all these people from all the different countries and you know, gets to go these places. Yeah, wonder if I can ever do that. So, yeah, a lot of the Curiosity came from there. But also, when me and my parents used to travel. Like, for example, in 2009, we went for kind of went for a trip in Switzerland. And it was just the three of us, me and my parents. And we were at the train station, wanted to. I wanted to play stone paper scissors with this little guy. He was five, I was nine. I think I think I was nine. I don't remember. Anyway, I ended up like, guessing what the German words for stone, paper and scissors were. And then my mum used to speak German. So she walked over. And then this guy's mom walked over and started chatting. And eventually, we got invited over at there's like for lunch. And we travelled to places with them. And then we stayed over there. So basically, yeah, like, making making friends to travelling and building relationships, like we are still friends with them. And I still visit them quite often. So like, that's something that definitely came from the experiences I had in travelling growing up.

Catie Friend  03:44

So your parents were a huge influence. So your dad especially well, obviously your mum, and her linguistic skills. And and did you do? Did you find I'm gonna come back to your childhood in a minute. But did you find experiences like that? You know, I read often when I read it about adventures, and I read a lot about adventures, that, you know, the world these days is often portrayed to us as a really scary place, and people are bad. And there's all sorts of, you know, very many reasons why you should just stay at home with all the windows and doors closed. But presumably, despite some of the unfortunate incidents you had when you were travelling on your your cycle around the world, that you must have found that deep down and that is absolutely not true that people around the world are good, effectively, essentially.

04:33

Yeah, yeah. I may have had a shit experience with some people. But the bottom line is that the reason that I am alive today and talking to you is because of those amazing people who helped me out of those situations. And, yeah, I it's definitely something that I really kind of give a lot of importance to, because it'll be announced quite often. If that's put me off from travelling or you know, run my bike or going on adventures or going alone and all that, but could you

Catie Friend  05:08

perhaps expand on what what incident you're actually talking about?

05:14

Yes, of course. Well, I was riding around the world, I two thirds swing to the ride in Spain. I got mugged at knifepoint and attacked at knifepoint thrown around a bit. And they were stalking me for a bit before they actually pushed me off of my bike. And yeah, in the process of the whole thing that was held at knifepoint, literally, and the other person was going through my belongings, and then it was thrown off the side of the road. And then my bike fell, like on the top of me. And all of my stuff was like basically spread on the road. And it was it was really like, shit incident like I was, I was unconscious for a few hours. And when I got up, I had to find my way back up and you know, take my bike up, and I have no idea what I was doing. I didn't know which direction I was going in, manage to walk in a direction that I was just like, what that made sense if then we've got so my stuff was pulled across more in one direction than in another. And I just guessed that that's the direction I was going in. Which doesn't make sense because everything happened was we were on a standstill. But whatever. Yeah, walked in that direction found a gas station. And the guy there obviously, is Spanish. I speak English. I don't I don't stand Spanish. So somehow, we were trying to Google Translate. But then I, before we could get to that I didn't remember my phone password. He tried 0000. That worked. Because somehow All my life I've had that work. And yeah, ended up Google translating everything. And I didn't remember anything. So he was finding it really like annoying, but I don't remember anything. And I'd like I said, I might have had my head. And then I had a bump was like, hey, look, I did it. And yeah, after a lot of kind of chatting with him, there was this family who actually spoke English, which ended up taking me to a hospital where we found out that I had a concussion and I obviously, I enjoyed that coffee ate something. And I kept throwing. And I was like, there was like blood, sweat and blood and I wasn't sure what was happening. And I kept getting really bad headaches. My body felt like someone's like, hit me with a truck or something. It was shit. And I just didn't know why that was happening. Because I didn't remember what was happening to me what had happened to me. But yeah, after the after I was back to a motel room, from the hospital. I kind of, you know, calm down and made myself like I literally, when you're so quiet, you actually start remembering things of it. And I kept getting flashes of memory. But when I found that space for myself, to just be in it, what I found that time to be by myself. Somehow it all came back to me and I was like, Okay, this is what happened. Like, only small flashes of memory can be stitched together. And this is what happened. And yeah, that made sense, because I remembered the number of the motorbike that the guys were on, because that's what I was focusing on was held at knifepoint. And yeah, I was trying to also figure out what the guy looked like, who was taking my stuff. I was like, if I ever have to describe to anyone, I can describe him, like, you know, based on his appearance to me, like, you know, he looked like this Bollywood actor or something. But yeah, that was the incident in Spain. But like, the reason I, I was able to figure all this out was because those people that guy who owned the gas station and that family, they actually took time out of their lives, they went out of their way to to help me out and to take me to the hospital to figure out what was wrong with me. They were just as worried about me. As I would say, if my parents were there, they would have been, but I didn't I didn't tell my parents until I was kind of back on the bike and comfortably writing. Gosh,

Catie Friend  09:37

so you find some good people out there to to help and when you did tell your parents and friends what was the reaction, did they you know, I kind of get from reading about you and from having spoken to you before that, you know, your parents would not necessarily likely to be on the first plane to Spain to pick you up. But there must have been hugely And

10:01

yeah, they were they were my dad was like, What the fuck is up with you and your unsupported thing? Can Can we just arrange for someone to kind of drive so that so that, you know, you're safe and and I was like, Look, if there's gonna be a chat about me getting support I'd rather not do it like I'm to stop. And like I made I was being really extra about it like, you know, I didn't, I didn't I don't think I really understood my parents perspective on being that worried because I was in my own kind of pit. So I was like they were, they were really, really, really worried about me and they weren't sure if it was right for me to continue. And like, I wasn't just saying that I was going to continue. I was saying I was also going to write across Russia at that time, which I did halfway, but anyway, and they knew I was going to be winded and they're just like, what are you doing? And at some point, like, another thing was the conflict. concussion is not a big thing in India, like, you know, someone falls on their head, they just fell on their head, it hurts a little bit. It's kind of left at that. Because of that, I had to actually explain to my parents what it what it does to you. And so like, two weeks later, when I was still struggling, I, my dad was like, Hey, you know what, you can still make it. Like, you know, you can still make the 29,000 kilometres in a decent time. Don't need to kind of just because you didn't get the world record, like you know, doesn't mean you still can make it in a decent time. And I remember I was just like, yelling, but I just going, No, I'm absolutely done with this. I'm going to ride my bike and

11:54

whatever face on

11:57

telling me that. I don't think you really understand what what this has done to me. And I don't think you like I hadn't told him the whole thing about what should happen. I didn't tell him about knives. I just told that was mobbed. If I told that I was actually held at knifepoint, I'm pretty sure the reaction by both of my parents would have been different. Yeah. And my mom ended up like, the one thing I've always told my parents is and not contact my friends, because I absolutely hate that. And my mom ended up like messaging all my friends and telling them like, you know, to check in with me, often and all that. And I was doing that anyway, like on the way I was just sometimes because this incident happened when it was dark. Somehow, every time I could like after that every time I wrote in the night or two at night, and I saw a light it really freaked me out. And I would just call him call a friend and chat. And that was that was something that really helped in the first few. Well, yeah, first few weeks of after the concussion, it really helped that I would just call my friends up and just chat to them. And one was based on windows at the time he was in Finland. One was in machine Ireland is either in Ireland or Brazil, one of those. And another one was actually I lived with him. He's like my best friend. And he was a part of the film crew, which kind of saw me in some places and film some sections of the of the ride. And he wasn't like after. After Paris, I believe he wasn't gonna be there for the rest of the world. And I was just like, Yeah, fine, but like when he was gone. I remember like, I was like also calling him a lot. And then there were other friends as well. And just like, friends that initially before I left, I thought were acquaintances. They would just call me up and be like, Hey, how are you? And I was just mad. magically, I would reappear on on their radar, I

Catie Friend  14:05

suppose. So your mom did you a favour by ignoring your

14:08

wishes.

14:10

And it was actually completely different friends.

Catie Friend  14:14

So these are sort of acquaintances that you didn't start? Well, obviously, there was the best friend but people that you didn't necessarily know that well. Is it sometimes easier? Do you think to talk to people that you maybe don't know that don't know you as well?

14:26

Certainly it is it is because I think the people who know you really well. There is also a possibility that they will get worried really easily. And you also like always think about them along with yourself when you're talking. And so in my case, I think more about the person I'm talking to then I would about myself. So in that case, like when I'm talking to an acquaintance I would actually not hold back on my emotions or how I'm feeling I would just be really open And that's like, it doesn't need to be an acquaintance. Or like someone or it could be someone I do not know at all, it could be a stranger. And, you know, I'm really open like that. And it's it's quite funny actually, I think like, someone who doesn't know me at all, if that person sees me talking to another stranger, they would think I'm their friend, actually, because I am that open with other people.

Catie Friend  15:27

And where do you think that comes from? Where does that openness come from? Do you think it's that sort of travelling as a child? Do you think it comes partly from being an adult? You're an only child, aren't you? Yeah,

15:37

I'm an only child. Yeah.

Catie Friend  15:39

Do you think there's an only child element to that, that sort of ability to talk to adults and,

15:43

and other people easily? Yeah, that that's one of the things were also the other travel experiences with my parents, because my mom, she used to encourage me to ask other people where they're from, unlike, you know, and like to kind of chat to other people or ask for help. Or she used to just kind of when we needed to know directions for someplace, for example, my parents would ask me to do it, because they would encourage me to be open like that, and not be shy for asking for help. And I think that was really cool. At the time, I was like, Oh, why do I need to do this? I just want to listen to my music. But yeah, now I really appreciate it. Because I'm not scared of talking to strangers.

Catie Friend  16:30

And I read in your, in your website that you said you didn't have that many friends at school, were you always in the same school? Or did you move around because of your dad's work? Or

16:41

no. So like, dad's work didn't really affect where we lived as much. But I think, until I was seven or eight, I was in a different place than where my, like, arrest of my primary school and secondary happened. And I think, yeah, I didn't really have anything to do with moving places, it was more about just totally how it was. And I think I've always had a little little so I've grown up when my dad used to be out of the country, I never really got on really well with my mom. So because obviously, she was alone and like ultra taking care of me. And she had to, she wasn't able to see things, he wasn't able to do the things that she wanted to do. And then the frustration would kind of come out on me. And it was like, I don't know, it was it was abusive. And I kind of got really, I used to get really nervous I i was i wasn't I didn't find it easy to talk to people my age, or I didn't find it easy to express myself when in school, or whenever like group trips and stuff like, you know, school trips, I wouldn't go on them because I was scared, I wouldn't have anyone to sit next to me. Or I was just like, oh, man, like, I'm going to be alone again. And again. Like when I was actually in school, you know, when when you have lunch break and stuff, I used to be sitting alone, I was pathetic, honestly, as the sitting alone by myself and eating it. And I was like, honestly, how am I going to spend the rest of my life like, I remember, like, I distinctly remember thinking that and I would have never thought that. Like when I moved here, I would be so comfortable with all that. And I would be so comfortable with being by myself and having my own company. But in the school, there was a problem because I was also bullied a little bit. So that didn't help. But I didn't have any friends of my own. Who are girls, basically. So I got better with the guys. But then it ended up in a really weird way because it was also some of the guys which will like booing you know, it's just like, Who are my friends who weren't? And I remember this thing because I even like, yeah, this really bothers me even now that I did that at the time. But I remember asking people who are my acquaintances at the time I was what 1213 something like that. And I remember asking all those people if there's something annoying about me that they don't want to be friends with me and asked every single person that I thought had that thing. And I literally I and they were really honest, and apparently I was annoying, and I was just like it was it was really funny, but it was also really sad.

Catie Friend  19:42

And when you say annoying, like did they elaborate and you know, because

19:46

oh yes, they elaborated painful, it's painful.

Catie Friend  19:50

Did you think do you think you do think that changed you? Or did you change behaviours in any way? Or did it make it easier for you to understand? the sort of person that you were or how did that how did it affect you What happened?

20:05

I think I got more comfortable with having that lunch alone. You know why? Because I realised that I spoke with my parents about this when my dad came back from work. I remember for like, when he was back for his 20th eating, I told him that I did this. And then he was just telling me that you don't need first seat, you don't need to get on with everyone. And second, like the kind of person you are, or you think you are, there's nothing wrong with that. So I told him what my what my friends and yours Look, that's bullshit. That's just them being teenagers. You read books, you write stuff, and I was I was writing, I call it the manuscript. I was writing a book with my hands at the time, it was funny. And, and my dad was saying that that's actually like, like, he said that I was being more I was, I wasn't, I don't know, he said that I was being more grown up than I was at the time. So I wasn't being a teenager. And that's why they, they like, that's why they said all those things. And that's why they thought that I wasn't, I was mature, or I was doing things which were little can be won by age.

Catie Friend  21:22

Do you think they felt a little bit threatened that you seemed different? Or, as your dad said, more grown up?

21:28

it I think, I think they just found a bit strange. Like, you know, you kind of get along with people who aren't like you, and I wasn't like them. And I didn't, I didn't. Yeah, I kind of made my peace with that at a point. I was like, actually, it's not bad that I didn't have friends in school. And it's not bad that I don't have friends of the same gender, wherever I do have and like, it's okay. And I kind of got better at that. Because then like, I remember that year that I realised that I read more books than I ever had in my days before. I was just like, I read books, I played football, I, I did everything. I rode my bike, I did everything else. And I remember, like, making myself realise that look, other people don't define you, you define yourself. And yeah, my parents really helped with that as well. Because Yeah, they would, they would ask me every self and if, if everything in school is okay. And I'd be like, well, I don't go to school trips, I asked you guys to take me somewhere. And you know, we used to go on family trips, instead of me going to school trips. Because I told them that I'm worried. I don't think, like, you know, when, when people don't like you, you start getting worried that something bad's gonna happen, and no one's gonna be there to help you. And I was really worried about that. Because at the time, like, like, as a 1213 year old, when you're worried that people are not going to like you, and they're not going to help you. You don't know if you can help yourself either.

23:15

You know, so?

Catie Friend  23:18

Yes, no, I'm just, I'm quite, I'm struck by the fact that you realise that quite an early age, you said that people other people don't define you. I mean, do you? Do you have any idea that of how, what a mature thought that is? Because there are people a hell of a lot older than you. I've still not figured that out.

23:39

Oh, I didn't. At the time. I don't realise I'm like, even now I need to make myself realise again and again, that hey, like other people, like, not everyone will like you. And it's okay. Because I like there's so many people that already know that don't like the way I am, but then I'm with the support of friends and my parents as well. I always kind of come back to the whole other people don't define you thing. And it's like, it's phases that make me realise that, okay, yeah, yeah, you kind of come back to who you are and what you do, like, you know, don't think

Catie Friend  24:18

I read that you found sort of friendship and relationships, more in your extracurricular activities, including your football and that sort of thing. Well, not as much. Well,

24:30

yeah, a little bit in football as well, to be fair, but yeah, I sucked at football, like I was, I I didn't I don't never like to run so I was stuck at the goalposts. I was goalkeeper, but I was fearless in terms of going for the polls. I would, I wouldn't be afraid of just you know, diving for the ball. And I've broken my nose several times. I've got hit in my head like kick several times, which might be which might explain why I'm so crazy. But anyway,

25:00

But yeah, I,

25:03

when I was playing football when I was playing it with with the guys, I knew I was not as strong. And I think that helped me make friends with the guys. But when I was playing with girls, because I was at the goalposts and because I didn't have this whole commanding, I don't know, personality. I don't have a commanding personality, let's face it, I can be the person standing at the goalpost going, all right, go for the ball, do this do that. Like just I don't think I'm the one yelling at people to do that. So I was in and I realised, and I think I was also afraid of the other other girls because I was, frankly, a pushover. So remember to national camp. I was washing my clothes and wash basin. And I had them and everything. No, my mama taught me what to do when I was you know, following your instructions doing on that by myself. And the girl saw that they didn't know what to do. So they asked me if if I can do it for them. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, they're trying to be friends with me. They're being nice. Oh, yes, of course. I did it with him. And then for like five days straight, they kept asking me, I didn't even realise that the correct thing to say was Oh, let me teach you how to do it so that he can do it. So yeah. Anyway, learn from that. And that was the camp, which was the end of my football career. Right. When after that I switched to cycling. And that's worked really well for me, I would

Catie Friend  26:41

like it. Yes. And so you met lots of people through that was your cycling club or just meeting with people?

26:49

Not always in cycling club? Oh, that's funny, actually. Because I went in, I went for a short kind of cycling trip in the Himalayas with my, like, ex boyfriend. And when I was there, I remember. I remember meeting this guy who was like, I think it was like 30 something year old. And he was I just asked him about like, bunch of mountaineering questions, because I was into mountaineering. So we had a good chat about mountaineering. And he, he was saying that I was really good at the cycling part of the trip. And like, you know, if I wanted, I could do the whole whole road, which goes across Himalayas, essentially. And I was like, No way, I would love to add, and then he was like, hang on, how old are you? And I said, I was 17. Oh, we do it at like, so it was youth hostel associations, which which were doing that thing. Yeah, it also associations of India, they had organised that little emmalin adventure. And then it's Grant amalan adventure, which is kind of I would say, That's expedition worthy. Yeah, that Himalayan route that are done. They do it in groups. And they, they make it sound and look really fancy. And he said to me that look like because you're under 18, we might not be able to take you on. And then I kept in touch with him. And I would message him with, you know, what, what sort of Route should I take? What sort of stuff Should I carry and all that. And eventually, like, he became a really good family friend. So like, I still talk to him. He's like a mentor to me contest. And he tells me what stuff I should go or in terms of, you know, get get at the time, I needed to buy a new bike for this and all that. So, you know, he helped me through that process. Until like, even when I came to the UK when I needed to buy a bike. And even after the round world thing when I needed to prepare for Silk Road, and I was like, Oh shit, I'm standing on a mountain bike. I can't understand the power variations and putting in so much power. And I'm not going as fast and he knows the scientific things behind it as well. So yeah, like, somehow through the six day trip that I've gone to, I ended up meeting a friend who encouraged me to do this whole, you know, this ride across Himalayas and I think that sort of relationships that you can have that get forged in the mountains, I suppose. Yeah, you don't easily kind of forget about them let go and like, you know, you kind of hang on to them for like, a long, long time. And I think this is awesome because he in the last part of my ride around the world, in the last part of India think it was last 1500 2000 something kilometres. And at the time, I was like, Oh my god, I only have this smart left. So happy about being able being at a place where I could say that, but anyway, and he had joined me for that. And I remember having something a similar sort of chat with him when I was writing there. And I was telling him that, hey, do you remember that I'd come up to you. And I'd asked you all these questions about mountaineering, and I did not know that you knew everything better. And yeah, it's really cool.

Catie Friend  30:28

And so you think that changed in some way, the way you view friendships did that, it seems like it's kind of a pivotal point, finding someone who was interested in the same things as you and didn't perhaps view as, you know, a kid, the weird kid that, you know, that reads books and so on. I

30:46

I love the fact that I've always been able to make better friendships and all that with people who are older than me. Because somehow I just managed to make a conversation that works, that they don't find annoying that that just, it just happens to work. I don't know how to explain it. It's always kind of it's been a case quite a few times now. And yeah, yeah, I think that's definitely. Yeah, that's definitely changed the way I look at friendships as well. But then my closest friends are kind of around my age. And I think that's really cool. But that didn't happen for a long time. When I move to this country to the US

Catie Friend  31:33

old were you when you moved to the UK?

31:36

I had just turned 18. Like literally five days after I turned 18 and moved

Catie Friend  31:40

and you came to you went to Bournemouth to study is that correct? Yeah, yeah.

31:45

I came here. I didn't know a single person. It was really fun. And what

Catie Friend  31:50

what made your connections like How did you meet people? Was it through your course? Was it through cycling? Was it combination?

31:59

I saw I had gone to a cycling social, but I found it. Yeah, as a hellenized, as a person of colour, walking into a very light place, I always found being really found myself being really, really, really nervous. I wouldn't. I remember the first year of my school law, school, sorry, university, I wouldn't like look up and walk, I would look down. Like I would like, you know, not even on my phone, I would just look down on my feet and walk. And I was like, one like, you know, I didn't have much confidence at all. And I think it was riding my bike. When I was not in uni that actually built my confidence slowly, in terms of the fact that, hey, I just wrote 300 kilometres, oh, maybe I can, you know, feel stronger about myself and feel better about myself. And I can do better. And I remember, because there were people in cycling club who found about me doing these weirdly long rows and more, or long rides more often. They kind of like, that's how I started kind of chatting with people. But then I would refuse to

33:15

go on group rides.

33:16

I never know, I still haven't gone for a single group ride with the club. And I was I was the president of the club and I never went on a group ride. You know why? Because I just can't, like I can't, I think it must have been that thing. When I didn't go to school trips, it could have been that I just cannot cope with riding bikes in a group like with other people, they just kind of I go with, if there's a couple of people I go, and mostly they are like good friends of mine when I can choose to go with other people. But coming to the UK made me realise that I can I can choose who I want to be friends with, I can choose who I do not want to be. I can like I have the kind of ability to make those decisions. And I really like that. And yeah, cycling. The friends that are made from cycling are kind of Yeah, the other ones that I actually am even going to spend my next birthday with more like and speaking about friendships. Last year. I went to this, I rode my bike from Belgium, to Morzine in French Alps with a friend of mine, but never done bike biking before. And she's like a she's one of my close friends. She's, again, she's a best friend. And she's the one that I said was like either in Ireland or Brazil and I was riding around the world. And I spoke with her a lot and I spoke absolutely like we would talk about anything just about anything. And for a long time like two three hours and she's quite adventurous and I remember after our on our last day of the ride to moving or climbing that big hill, remember telling her that this is certainly going to be the highlight. Like now there's going to be 40 other people, all of them are my friends, but there's going to be 40 other people how, like, you know, this is too much.

35:12

And

35:14

God said hello to people. And I remember somehow, like, I realised how much of a difference three years can make. Because that time, I was totally comfortable chatting with everyone. I was even drinking some some buco. While not some A lot of it.

35:33

And I was just,

35:34

I was so comfortable mingling with people at that point, and I just couldn't believe it. Because that's, that wasn't me.

Catie Friend  35:42

Can you think of maybe a couple of things that, I mean, we've talked a lot about a lot of things, but what do you think were the main reasons Do you think the confidence of taking on such a big challenge? And as you say, maybe learning to to be in your own in your own company? Definitely.

36:01

I think it was the fact that I realised that I can rely on myself I can be by myself, and I can be comfortable with that. That was that really boosted my confidence. And so much so that, like, I met someone, like at the, at that trip with my friends, and now I live with him. Like, it's funny how that works. Like, I never had the confidence with like something.

Catie Friend  36:29

As in a partner.

36:30

Yeah, yeah. Oh, lovely.

Catie Friend  36:32

I was gonna ask you actually about your friend, you talking of living with people, your friend that you said, came with you did some of the filming? He gave up? Being at university for good or for a year? Or what to help you for a year for a year? Yeah. That's extraordinary. You see there there that tells me something about what kind of friend You must be that somebody believed in you so much, and that you gave him the confidence to, you know, to say, right, I need to properly knuckle down and help this person.

37:00

Yeah, it was insane. I didn't I, I think it came to me as a surprise as well. So I remember we were in a bike cafe talking about risk assessments for this round the world. Like, journey. And we were at, obviously, at the time, I was going for the world record. And also, we were noting down all the everything that could go wrong, basically. And he was the one who was like, he was telling me how everything could lead to death. And you know, I would just try and hold back and he would just not go back and just tell me the whole thing. And I was like, Oh, damn, like that can kill me too, then Okay, then fine. And then everything we'd like to risk level for somehow, because we were just going for those kind of things. And I remember that was the time when it's kind of like I was and then he said, but he was thinking of deferring from university for that year. So that he can join me for some bits to film those. But, and, and I was I was initially look, no way, like, an hour away. I was like, hang on, you're telling me? No, you've already done it, haven't you? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, I kind of give him get a row wrote, he wrote to someone and in some department in university, and I didn't even know that. And I know for a fact that he was also facing kind of a rough time at the time. And he was, yeah, he was facing really rough time between like, in early 2018. So he saw this as an opportunity to jump in and, you know, kind of get involved in something more adventurous that will help him see more of a world and all that as well. And I was it was awesome. Like, and yeah, he knew he meant the world to me for that was awesome.

Catie Friend  38:58

That's fantastic. Now, I just wanted to touch on something you said a minute ago, when you arrived in the UK as a person of colour? You didn't feel quite? Did I understand quite welcome. Or like you had a place amongst all the white faces? Is that in your accrual? If that's the right word of friends, over the years? Do you have a mixture of friends from different cultures? No. Or is it not something that is in the front of your mind?

39:30

I have got our friendships from like different colleges now. Yes, I do have friends from different who come from different cultural backgrounds now, and I think that helps the part of me which kind of you know, first came in the country and didn't feel very welcome. But I think the reason it didn't feel really welcome at the time was because I was in a culture shock. None of the things that I saw around me were part of my life before that. You know, seeing people on phones all the time. For example, like everyone who would sit in the cafeteria, I was used to, I was like, I don't know, if you go to a cafe in India, like now probably in a city. Yeah, people would be on their phones as well. But otherwise, you sit in mom's, like, you know, you just strike a conversation you make you talk to people like, and I always grew up like that. So I found it really strange. Like, I didn't feel like it was very accessible to actually reach out. And, yeah, I think that was like, the part which Really? I don't know, which really?

40:42

Yeah,

40:43

I think that was, that was the reason I just didn't feel like it was very accessible to talk to people. And, like, over the time of the ears, when I have built friendships kind of I, I have, I would like to think that I've tried to be more accessible because of that experience, or those experiences. Yeah, I would like to think

Catie Friend  41:11

it sounds to me, like, the friendship and sometimes the lack of friendships have played such a huge part in taking you to where you are to have achieved such an enormous thing in at such a young age, because I think back to myself at your age, and I was mainly just concerned with when how quickly Friday would roll around at university and and I could go dancing. And I just I feel like, you know, it's such a vulnerable age, the sort of teen years and late teen years and you took this awkward friendship stage and turned it into something that, really, you've achieved an enormous amount, how much do you think friendship or lack thereof has driven you to do what you've what you've achieved so far? A

42:01

lot. So yeah, that's always been a factor. And what I've done and how I've done it, for example, when I first came here, within a few months, I left for a bike ride across the country. And I remember thinking, well, no one's gonna want to follow it. Like, you know, I don't really have anyone to actually talk about this with. And I, I had this inner, I've got nothing to lose mindset at that point. And I think that really drove me to talking with more strangers along the way. That was like, Yeah, I think that overlooked part of me, which was like, knocking on stranger's doors and being like, Hey, I'm the dunking meeting. I'm from India, I recently moved here. And I'm just exploring the country. And can I have a cup of tea with you or something? I've done that people have loved it. And they are welcomed me in that welcomed me in their homes. And, you know, amazing. And, yeah, they have also some of closed doors in my faces. And I don't think much of that. But I think that, like these incidents, these incidences have made me feel more comfortable with being by myself, I would say, and these incidences made me realise that even if I didn't have anything that I do know, I will still be able to survive, just through the power of communication. And yeah, I think that's, that's what it's done. And then, obviously, yeah, I think that that that ride really kind of strikes as a highlight to, to your question.

Catie Friend  43:44

And it finally started because we've spoken before, just as a very late disclaimer in the in the podcast, but I know that you have had the guts to phone up some pretty impressive people and interview them. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Oh, yeah, yeah.

44:03

Well, I recently launched a course called adventure planning Crash Course. And I realised that because I picked up inspiration from from books and everything of all these adventurous people. I would like for people who follow my course to also take inspiration from Yeah, so I just reached out to all the people that I looked up to personally. And basically, our people like Jenny tuff, who is running across every mountain, like he's running across a mountain range of every continent, and I just, like, messaged her if she was okay with doing an interview. And then there was Jochen tiller, who I knew at the like who I knew was who kind of manages some really awesome people like Alastair Humphreys and I love this word Justin Gosling and all that was like, gosh, like Shane and respond and turns out he had like, emailed me and it went in my spam or something. And yeah, she was really keen. Then there Sean Conway, who, literally on one message, he was ready for it as well. And there was mad pycroft. So. I remember when the adventure podcast first started, I had a dream that I would kind of either I would like to do something worthy enough to be invited on that podcast. And it started in 2018. And remember, at that time, I

45:31

was like, Alright,

45:32

I give myself two years to do something worthy enough to be on there. Now, like, I just messaged Matt, when I was launching this course about how how much I love that podcast first and second. And how much I love following the phones by cold house and then how much I would like for him to interview, do an interview with me for for my course, and use euros down for it. And it was wonderful. And like, I think I messaged him on Instagram. Then I messaged him on LinkedIn and on Twitter. And he he told me when we actually spoke, he told me that he really liked my process. Like that. So now that's the thing that people have told me is annoying about me. But like when I reach out to people who kind of you know and look up to they have actually liked it. Even markets at that mark Beaumont. Yeah, I reached out to him as well, which was back in 2017. And reached out to him saying, Ma'am, I want to do this right around the world. And you know, I was gonna write to Kendall at the time from bone with which is really long distance. And I did it in like two days. And I think I'd done like 350 kilometres each day or something. And I had had bruised ribs at the time, because I fell off from my staircase in the house, and, oh, man, it was such a painful ride. But when I got there, I remember, I attended Mark's talk, and then we're having drinks mark and Sean Conway. And I was insane. I didn't, I would have never thought I would be in a situation where I'm having drinks with two people that I absolutely look up to and followed adventures for so long and all that. So it was quite crazy. But yeah, anyway, reached out to him as well. And I think it's, it's just about reaching out and putting yourself out there with so many people, it's, it makes a difference. When you're reaching out to people who you look up to those Actually, it's, it's more scary than reaching out to a stranger. Because there's like this bit where you're worrying about their judgement towards you as well.

Catie Friend  47:53

And there's an expectation because you feel like you know them. Yeah, because you've read their books, or you've listened to their talks. Or I reached out to somebody quite recently on Instagram, because I just read her book in a big kind of, hey, do you want to be on my podcast? Zero answer. And after took me about two days ago, she's probably thinking, I don't know you. So I feel a little more formal email may actually be appropriate. But you're right. You have an expectation of them because you think you know them, but they have absolutely zero clue who you are.

48:30

Yeah, that's that's a scary.

Catie Friend  48:33

So tell me just very briefly about your new adventure. You mentioned it just a minute ago. But tell us a little bit more about what you're doing at the adventure shed. Is that right? Yeah.

48:43

Yes. So I recently launched something called the adventure shed through which I help other people plan their adventures. So so far, I have to pull polar explorers for whom I'm planning their polar journeys, basically polar expeditions. And then there's someone who is doing a travelling around the world. There is some who is planning a really, really, really long running expedition. And yeah, there's also someone who's kind of planning to do like cycling around the world but not actually circumnavigation as persons planning to ride in like every country, you know. So yeah, I am helping these people plan their expeditions, but also support in terms of brand management. So you know, managing the social media or making like long term plans for them and helping them while helping them make the long term plans to be fair, I don't make them I helped them make them and along with that, I realised that I may be just 21. But I do have some sort of experience from the mistakes that I've made to talk about what not to do, when you're putting adventure together or what to do when you put an adventure together? Or I say, so yeah, I launched something called adventure planning crash course in which I talk about the elements of planning an adventure, or an expedition. And in terms of it says videos, there's workbooks. And there's interviews with the guest experts that I spoke about earlier. And yeah, I've really shifted the video part of it. But I promise it's still gonna be good enough to figure out you know, what it's about. But yeah, that's that's kind of what I've been doing will be adventure shed. Great. And

Catie Friend  50:37

lastly, sort of wealth penultimately. You have also been featured in a new book called tough women, which is edited by Jenny tuff, who you mentioned earlier. Oh, yeah. You're in some very, very good company in that book. Oh, man. Yeah, I'm

50:53

starting a company of giants aren't shy. It's crazy. Like, I, I never thought this would come up. Like I remember. It was, I think these people, the other people in the book were contacted last year to be in the book. And I was contacted, like in March. And, yeah, because I was just chatting with Jen. And she's like, Oh, absolutely forgot to tell you. I was gonna wait until Atlas mountain race to actually meet you in person and tell you this, but and then yeah, she said that she's doing this book called tough woman adventure stories. And then she told me who was going to be in there. And she was like, would you like to contribute a story for that? And I was like, holy shit, okay.

Catie Friend  51:39

They're all so beautifully written as well, what struck me was not just the, well, there's a level of insanity. Let's face it, amongst all of you. But some of us mere mortals may struggle to ever achieve. But, and I say that with the greatest of respect, actually. But you know, there's this the grit and determination and the powering through and things are really bad. But what also struck me about all the stories was, how beautifully written they were. And how evocative and how thought out and how I really felt like I was there. So tough women is out now edited by Jenny tough stories of incredible female adventures, more of which we should hear about all the time because my word, you are all absolutely hard as nails. And how can we follow you? Where can we find you on Instagram, or that sort of thing?

52:34

on Instagram, on wheels and works on Twitter as well on wheels and words? And yeah, on Facebook. My name is Dan Guccione,

Catie Friend  52:44

there's a page brilliant, which I will put in the podcast notes. There's the correct spelling, and to make sure everybody finds you. But then get it has been an absolute pleasure. It's always a pleasure for me to talk to you. Because I just find you the most extraordinary woman really, I do. And I'm old enough to be your mother. So I find it extraordinary that you have this wealth of life experience already at such an early age, I cannot wait to see where you go next. Must be quite hard to talk a trip around the world.

53:16

Thank you for having me. And it's always lovely to talk to you. I say that every time we speak. Yeah, it's always lovely to chat to you. So thank you so much.

Catie Friend  53:26

My absolute pleasure. And we will catch up again soon. But in the meantime, all the very best.

53:31

Awesome, thank you so much.”

Chatting to Karine Fragnière

Karine Fragniere is a 52 year old Swiss mother of 4 who did her first Ironman triathlon at the age of 50. She then went on to win her age category in the Zurich Ironman and qualify to compete at the World Championships in Kona, Hawaii.

 We chat about how to juggle motherhood and sport, ensuring the essential element of self care and making yourself a “more available mother” to your children. How to deal with mummy guilt, how exercise can help with your mental as well as physical health.

 We talk about the importance of friendship and community, the benefits to children of growing up with a sporty mother and all about her new book, Ironmum.

 She is now a coach, helping to spread the love of sport, health and wellbeing to other people.

 You can find her book and more information on her coaching on www.ironmum.ch and follow her on Instagram on @ironmum.ch as well as on Facebook.

 A really inspiring conversation that will motivate you to skip out the door for a swim, bike or run (or maybe all three!).

Transcript

Please note transcripts are generated by arifiical intelligence so may not be 100% accurate.

“SPEAKERS

Catie Friend and Karine Fragniere

Catie Friend  00:02

Hi, welcome to chatting to a friend. I'm Katie Friend. And in this podcast I'm chatting to incredible women about their life experiences and adventures, as well as their thoughts on friendship, community self care, setting boundaries, and how they keep healthy, happy unsane. Today I'm chatting to gain funnier getting is a 52 year old Swiss mother for I don't normally start by introducing my guests by their age, but in this case, it's particularly relevant because having been active and looked after her well being all her life, at the age of 50 gain stepped up a notch and took part in her very first Iron Man. And not only that, but she went on to win her age group in Zurich and qualified to compete at the mythical Ironman World Championships in Kona in Hawaii. And today, we're going to have a chat about that journey about wellbeing in general, and touching also on the age old question of looking after yourself and the mommy guilt that can come with that. Good morning, Karen. How are you today?

01:11

Good morning, Katie. I'm very good. How are you? Fine.

Catie Friend  01:14

Thank you so great of you to join me. I'm really really excited because I absolutely ripped through your book. Almost in one go. It was so exciting. Iron Man the name of your new book. Do you want to give us a quick rundown of what what it's about?

01:30

Yeah, I would love to so it's the it's basically my story of, of my quest for well being which started very, very young as a young girl, I would say. And well being basically really looking for my physical well being first and discovering that Endurance Sports make me really feel good. And not only make me feel good physically, but also mentally and make me be a better person. And this is really my my, my quest. This was my quest, and I discovered the endurance sport, but even triathlon was really the, the activity that I enjoyed the most. And the book is about that. It's about this quest, and it's about my Iron Man experience as a 16 year old mother of four children. So I participated in my very first Ironman when I was 50. And I went all the way to Hawaii, participating in the world championships. And yeah, that's about I hope I didn't say too much about it, that people still want to read it. But I think so.

Catie Friend  02:46

Yeah, no, that's amazing. And I have to tell you that I loved it for two reasons for actually for both, it's sort of a game of two halves the book, obviously, there's the story of getting to Hawaii and for those listeners who may not know understand triathlon, obviously a swim, bike run, but then the mega the biggest triathlon of all is, of course, the Iron Man, which is what 3.4 kilometres swim, is that right? Five

03:09

8.8

Catie Friend  03:10

Yeah, 180 kilometres of bike and full marathon. And it is the one of the reasons I loved the story and find it very emotional is because I'm married to an iron man, who I supported through Zurich, and Kona. And so I was living it almost with you, I knew I know the course not as an athlete, but as a as a full on supporter. And so I understand the similarities of your two experiences are quite incredible that you know, swimming, not being your favourite, being really disappointed when you can't wear your wetsuit because you lose that bit of buoyancy, just that all the sorts of things that I lived through with him. And I also loved Of course, the second part of it. Well, the running theme, obviously, but the the second half is all about the well being the physical well being, as you say, in the mental well being. And I just wanted to ask, how do you I know this is you've been doing this for a very, from a very young age. When I took up sports, I didn't take up sport till I was 38. properly. I mean, I skied and I rode horses, not to a very high standard of each. But when I took up sport, it wasn't actually my Iron Man husband that inspired me because it was quite it's quite intimidating to be around somebody who's at that level. How do you manage to inspire people? Like I was perhaps just coming out of early motherhood, because it was my best friend who suddenly decided to run a five key that inspired me. How do you how do you talk to women who are like me not sporty and want to get into it? Yeah, sure.

04:45

So my my personal personal experience with that was that I really took a chance from when they were babies were sleeping. And I had someone of course, looking after them. I would take 45 minutes for myself and go out and explore the the surroundings and I realised that then, little by little, I would put my sneakers on instead of just my shoes and then and then started to run. And that gave me such a boost. And made me I would say, really a more available mom, when I was coming home. I was, I was feeling healthy, I was speeding ahead, C boosted and I was feeling so strong. And maybe it was the connection with my own with my buddy that was that had happened also the connection to nature, the sun, and I was just so energised, that I felt like I was a I was a better person, and I was more available for my children. Because I know how extremely tiring It is to be 20 hours a day. Therefore, for your kids, I say 20 hours because you don't always get a full night's sleep. And I just this is was my This was my experience as a mother that it really gave me so much energy to be a better, not a better but to be more available and always there for a man who was there for her kids.

Catie Friend  06:22

That's amazing. I wish I honestly cannot tell you how much I wish I had known that when my kids were tiny. And I know you had twins first as well, which is extremely hard work from what I know. I see the thing is I used to look at mums that did stuff for themselves. And you know, with all hand on heart all honesty I used to I used to judge I used to think how can you need to be with your children all the time. And I really wish that I had known that. I've just had a question on Instagram actually from a friend of mine Saracens that, who is a phenomenal athlete in her own right. She has two young kids. And she says Did you or do you ever have the guilt? The Mummy guilt for taking the time to train and compete? And if so, how do you get over it? Or is it just not something you've ever had?

07:13

No, no, I have definitely I have felt guilty, being away from them. And, and taking care of myself. But then what happened was two things I realised that I was a better person or a better mom after than before. And that's the first thing and then the second thing that was that I realised that it's really it would be such a shame that while I'm taking time for myself, that I feel guilty and that I I waste this precious time this precious hour I took for myself. So you know it's not going to help my kids if I if I feel guilty about it. Because I'm not there anyway, so I better make the best of it and really, really enjoy it. And and that yeah. So Mike Sutton says it's not selfish to do what's best for you. And I feel like when you take care of yourself and you really yeah, you take responsibility tu tu tu tu to enjoy it at the max that the maximum you are then it's okay. It's it's what you it's what you should do that as a mother.

Catie Friend  08:31

I quite I agree. No, I definitely do because I spent four days walking literally just last week. And the first day and a half probably I was a bit twitchy not because I particularly missed them or because I I just you know, that sort of you're just used to being there. I'm used to being here all the time. And then I said to myself exactly that I thought why are you wasting this beautiful time on your own? Feeling bad feeling guilty, they're loved, they're looked after they're having quality time with their dad, and they're just, you know, I as you say will be a better mom more patient calmer, less anxiety filled when I get home with stories to tell.

09:13

Absolutely. It's I love it. And it's an it's it's really, it's really how also what also I thought that they are fine. And, and they are and it's great for them to have someone else look after them for once in a while. And for them, not only for us as moms but for them. It's also it's also a great opportunity to learn another mother more skills. And then finally also when they when you come back. It's also beautiful to see how you know to feel like they miss you. And this is a new reward. Also, not seeing that the others don't do the right doo doo doo did well, but you know, they miss us mothers so it's nice to see them realised, I

Catie Friend  10:00

also think, from my experience, I spent so much time feeling like I had to be there all the time. And only I could do everything but no, when I go, I see what a really lovely relationship they're building with their own routines with with my husband. You know, they they have a relation is really important that relationship they have with him, which perhaps they didn't have when they were younger, because I was very much the kind of mom that went, just, it's fine. I'll just, I'll just do it. You know, and that that I never really met perhaps gave the opportunity because it always I felt like I was the only person who could do it, I think is sometimes a downfall. Certainly for me, I was a full time mom. And I think that's, that can be a big downfall.

10:41

Yeah, I can totally relate to that. It's hard to let go in the beginning when when we know so much better than anyone else. Yeah,

Catie Friend  10:52

it is. And he you said, when I read that, when you had your twins, you were living in New York, and you were far from family did you have, you know, that's how I bring up my kids. We're living here in Switzerland, we don't have family around a boat. So for me, for my husband, our family, our community, our friends, our everything, it's so important, how important and how much has that played a part in your life, bringing up kids and achieving all the incredible sporting things that you've done?

11:22

Were very, very important. So as you said that I was not in at home, I was in New York. And luckily, I had two very, very good friends, I met two beautiful woman, women who became my I say, soul sisters who helped me throughout those, those nights when my husband was travelling, and they were they came to my place to help me take care of the babies in take take turns. So basically, I could sleep a little bit while while one one of my friends would look up to one baby, or put him back, put him up, put her back to sleep. So definitely, I mean, their presence was very precious. And then when I came back to Switzerland, after that, my mom and my dad were available, and they could really help me, especially during the afternoon nap. So I could ask one of them to come and look after the stay at home while I while I was going on by bike or, or swimming or running. So yeah, that was really very, very helpful.

Catie Friend  12:30

And talking of friends, I read in your book that you had, you had Susan, your swimming buddy, when you were training, how important because you know, again, referring to my own experience, I was not really sporty until after I had my kids and I realised that I had to if I didn't get up and do something, they would all be out cycling up calls and you know, doing adventures and I'd be on the couch. And so it was actually finding sporty friends which is not something I'd ever really had before that really pushed me inspired me and I try to make it a rule to not not say no to my sporty friends even when they are intimidatingly fast or fit because of how much you learn when you go out with people who know what they're doing. And how important were your sporty friendships during your sort of preparation? Well, it's not your life.

13:25

I would say for me, it's, I can motivate myself to do sports. So but I know I'm different from from, from many. So this is my self discipline. Which which makes me which allows me to be you know, to say okay, well Okay, now I have an hour and I'll go and but but talking about friends of course Susan was it she came at exactly the right moment where I wouldn't have I'm not sure if I would have believed I could do more than just an Olympic triathlon, which is the 1.5 kilometre swim plus 40 kilometres kilometres bike ride and then 10 kilometres run. I told that that's it, that's already a huge achievement. But Susan came there came at that moment where and she said, Oh, let's do a 17.3, which is the half Ironman distance, and I never, I don't know if without her I would have had to start and so she was basically the initiator for that and to believe that I could do more. And until we started to train together, because for me, it was really like a big big step. Yeah, it was a big step in my in my in my adventure, and a bit overwhelming, I would say and because she was just, oh, let's do it. I said, Okay, I'll follow. And so that was really that's what helped That's that that was the kickoff kickoff. And then we started, we met for the swim because we were both bad bad swimmers. Really, really, I mean, I said, Now, at hindsight, I know I was not a good swimmer. And it was such a motivation to meet two, two times a week, for an hour for 45 minutes at the pool, because we were both reading it so much. And, and even if we couldn't talk too much, you know, between maybe in between with a word or two and say, Okay, let's go again. And, but it was a huge, huge motivation to be to be with her in the pool, and as well as on the bike. And on the run there, we were more like we had to be to adapt to our kids to our children's schedule. So the bike we're sometimes on the weekend, we do, we would do a long bike ride together. And that was also very, very nice to share. Especially when I trained for my very first Ironman 70.3 The weather was extremely bad in Switzerland, it was, I mean, I think it was grey and raining the whole spring, during the whole March, April, May, even June, it was still cold. And that was quite imitation. So it was a long answer, sorry, but yeah, definitely importance of friends for to stay, to stay focused and to, to believe we can go We can do it, because sometimes one of one of the friends is more daring. And, and another is more has other qualities. So even more disciplined, or whatever, so we can really use each other's strengths.

Catie Friend  16:51

Absolutely. When I trained for the pathway, the last year, the PDG, my teammates, and I, you know, and I was not the fittest, and I was not the best skier, but I like the statistics, I knew when we should eat and when we should, you know, be drinking and, and I like the technical aspects of it. And so we found our rules, we had one who was you know, just got our head down and got on with it, the other one who would push us just that little bit further, and me looking after the sort of technical aspects, and it's although that's actual team event, it is so good to train with people who, you know, same goal but slightly different natural tendencies to to help out in that way.

17:34

Absolutely. Did you do did you do long run or that as well? No, I did. Amazing. I know.

Catie Friend  17:42

Thank you Well, from from not doing any sport till I was 38 to doing the PDG when I was 45 was a huge achievement. And because I am not someone who's naturally motivated to do sports still not even these days, even though I know how good it is for me, I have to give myself a good talking to but you talked about Susan coming along at the right time now. We met very briefly last week. And I heard you say a couple of times that you don't believe in coincidence. Can you tell me a little bit about that and how that fits in with what you said about Susan

18:18

Of course well in the reasons let's say Mohammed no I would say All my life I could find these these coincidences which are not for me coincidence, but definitely Susan or another one which was based which which is linked to my mother. She passed away just in 2017 while I was doing my errand man adventure, like, like, just do my idea was just to do one errand man to finish one Iron Man one one day, and my mother passed away just after my first trial, which I had to stop because I broke my foot during the race. And and then because I knew I was pretty good. I decided to sign up for another Ironman, but I didn't know which one I should choose. And and it was really I it was a complicated decision because I knew you know, I wanted to qualify for Hawaii and I had to find the race which would match my my you know, my strength I where I would be the strongest. And I didn't know I wish I hadn't heard you say I made an Excel sheet. I was putting the four or five different races which would be interesting. Like to to be possible. There was Zurich in Switzerland, there was Sweden, that was Copenhagen. And and then I didn't know I said okay, this is this, this race would be better. For because it's late, this other race would be better because it's flat, and so on and so on. And, and one day, just like, once after my mom passed away, I, I, all of a sudden I thought, oh, we're not what are the dates of the of the of Zurich? And I thought of doing then. And I saw that it was my mother's birthday. Yeah. And, and, and the birthday was the date was 29th of July. And I said, Okay, I knew, I mean, I could feel it in all my body. And I said, Okay, that's the one. And I immediately signed up for Zurich, knowing that I would I raised with the, with the right one for me. And just a few weeks after that, I really had a vision. And I had just spent a few minutes in the house of my parents were, which was, of course, empty. And, and I was on my bike and going down back home. I all of a sudden, an image came from nowhere, and but very, very clear. And the image was that I was on the podium, and I was on the first I was on the making for us in Zurich, and it was so strong that I am so clear that I said, Okay, she's there, and she, my mom is there, and she's gonna help me and she's she will help me do it tonight. And she did. So mainland Asia, right. Yeah.

Catie Friend  21:33

Amazing. And talking of which, you know, there's so much put in, in store, with visualisation, you know, and your why and why you do it. And when I was training for the PDG, and you know, was losing focus, and losing is hard. And I was trying to juggle kids and my husband was also training for the bdg. That image of me running across the line, I had no great designs on winning, obviously. But the image of me running across the line and verbiage with my teammates, and my kids was so insanely strong, that that's what I hung on to. And that is what I you know, someone said, just remember why you're doing it. And so I you know, that's when it was hard when it was cold. It was raining when I was on the bubble going up to maybe at six in the morning thinking what am I doing? I was just thinking, you know, when I was trying to do my sprints and going I know what to do the last one. And I would say you will never run across that line. If you do not do that final Hill interval. You know, how much is that mental. I mean, obviously, this was a revision and to do with, you know, coincidence is speaking, but how much of visualisation is important in what you do what you've done,

22:50

I think it's very important to, to have a dream and to and to do, as you said before, to visualise yourself, going past during the flow going to the finish line and, and, and feeling the whole your body and your whole your whole soul like totally filled with love with with joy and pride and everything, I think this is very important to, to, as you said before, to keep you motivated in very difficult training, in trainings, intervals, and so on to in bad weather, and so on and so on. And then, to me, it's also very, very important to stay always to the why, as you said, it's really the, the why, because I love it, I could not have done this without loving the sport I do and and this is really central for me, I wish I had sometimes to, to rethink about to rehabilitate to reconnect to the pleasure of, of sports, while I was training because sometimes those trainings was so difficult and, and at the boring because they would Yeah, because I would repeat the same or not exactly the same but over and over again the same effort. And I had to I realised I had to, often to reconnect to my why and especially to the to the client or to to the the enjoyable part of it. And it's really key when when you do when you do such a such an Indian sport or such long effort, which are sometimes as you said before, you have to do in in rain or in very cold conditions or or early morning when you're you feel like just going going back to sleep.

Catie Friend  24:53

And that feeling that when you get that one gets when you cross the line and You can look back and see that it wasn't just the race, but the entire journey that you've been on. I mean, it's, it's pretty indescribable. And it's, as I say, something I did not experience until far too late in life. And it makes you feel like the queen of the world. And so it should, because regardless of whether you were first or last, you still did it. And it's all the early mornings, it's the crying because you it was too hard, or you've hurt yourself, and you don't know if you can carry on training, it's all of that. And there's that magnificent feeling of well being. What I sometimes struggle with is to retain that after the initial excitement has worn off, or if I don't have a race specifically to train for, how do you I know, you said you're quite internally motivated, but how do you remind yourself of that incredible feeling?

25:59

It's a very good question, or do you have Well, for me, it's more because the every, as I said before, like I tried to enjoy, and I do enjoy every session. I always find in every single training session, like, the fun or the pleasure, or, yeah, the if it's not during, it's after. So at least Yeah, and I would say I find it often during because I, I look outside, I look outside, I look, you know, I look around me, and I'm like, wow, you know, how, how beautiful it is. I'm so lucky, I'm so grateful to live in this country, where in Switzerland where, you know, there are mountains, there's a lake and the sun is shining, or anything like or I often I when I'm on my bike, and it's a long set, it's a long session, and I'm on board because you know, I'm I've seen the nature and then you know, it doesn't, then I just often I, I start to feel grateful for the relationships I have. And you know, it's these long moments that you have by yourself, where you it's, to me, it's like, it's a bit like a meditation. And, and I, I usually see always the positive things in the world. And in my life, when I'm on my on my bike or when I'm running, even though I may be suffering on, you know, going up a hill or so. But then I you know, this adrenaline and this effort is, is helping me see really everything, like all the beautiful all the beautiful things in my life. So this is how I stay motivated. It's always it's very positive. In to do that, for me

Catie Friend  27:56

it is it is I was just thinking before you said meditation, it is like a meditation and movement is very often you just get into the sound of your own breath, or your feet on the trail or your pedals going round or in the winter, the skins on this Oh, yeah. And there's that sort of just allowing yourself as a little bit like letting go of the guilt just a little bit letting go of the Oh, this is too hard. And just going, Okay, just go just keep going. And then and breaking it down into smaller chunks. So it doesn't, or finding something technical to look at. I like looking at technical things like my watch my cadence or that you know, sort of thing. I'm talking about meditation, and yoga, and I know that something that you incorporate into your daily life, as should we all I try to as well. I'm always brilliant at it. Can you talk us through a little bit about that, but also, actually just talk us through a little bit about that first now I'll come to my second question afterwards.

28:58

Okay, yeah, I realised when I when I was preparing my very first Iron Man that the that I needed to incorporate yoga, I had already started I had already done some yoga, but then just at that moment, I had met a new yoga teacher who really made me enjoy yoga even more, especially because I could really through her explanations understand, you know, all these these you know, this muscle is doing this, oh, I feel this muscle now because I did that and so I really started to know my body even better, and I knew how to relax it and and relax the muscles and and heal them myself. And I realised that I needed that in order to recuperate from the long and hard training session. And then something else really, really helped me with she this teacher with all So make us do breathing exercises. And as I as I said before, I'm not the best swimmer and I was always struggling with the breathing or being out of breath and not enough air to keep on swimming and, and doing those breathing exercises really helped me trust my my lungs, knowing that I have enough hair, I can do that I can be under the water for a few seconds even because if someone you know, when you start in the swim in the lake, in a race you may have you may get hit, you may have punched also by others. And this was really for me a big big challenge and the breathing exercises helped me feel like safe and know that I can do it. Even if I'm I can read every three every five seconds. It's okay. So all these things and and, of course, I think them self confidence, knowing your body, knowing yourself through it through yoga, you know yourself so well that, especially when you stay in, in a posture for a certain time, which I do, it's the yoga I do is at practices that Hatha Yoga, you stay in this posture for for quite some time. It's sometimes very hard to let go and to, to totally let the muscle and then the whole nervous system really. And it's really again, in a moment in a race or in a moment during a very difficult effort that you can also you know, you can trust yourself. You can trust your buddy and you, you, you it's gonna work and it's great for the self confidence. In my eyes.

Catie Friend  31:54

I completely agree. I was at a daylong yoga festival in Verbeek last week. And I did a half a session which I have not done for a when we lived in London, I did have that and I loved it. And it as you say, taught me so much about breathing. It helped me when I was in labour both times. And I had sort of although I do meditation, and I've done yoga, since it had been a while since I had practised Hatha Yoga, and I just thought, Gosh, breathing is everything that breathing through the pain breathing through, you know, because as you say, you sit you stay in these positions for quite a long time. And it's painful, because you're stretching the fascia. And you're you have to, as you say, just let it go, breathe, breathe, and trust that what is happening is what's supposed to be happening. And it's so it's such a metaphor for sport for life for everything. And, and for dealing with children quite often.

32:56

weave in and out three times. Before you raise your voice

33:03

and

Catie Friend  33:04

I was wondering I had a couple of questions. Can you do have any examples of times when your sport and you're practising have this well being has maybe saved you as a bit of an exaggeration, but has helped you out of a dark place or a dark time?

33:22

No, no, I would say many times a negative again, go back to to my mom and I was really I would say when I was grieving her. I was going into depression it was January I was really down even though I had this goal of Zurich seven months later, but I I was down I just was crying a lot and I didn't really see the sense of Wait, why was I leaving? Why what you know really the purpose of life? I think I went running every day in winter and yeah, it gives me that that the good feeling that I needed just for every day. It was feeling good feeling feeling feeling alive. And it kept me on Yeah, above surface, let's say so definitely helped me a lot really sports is for me the way if I'm not well, I will go out and I will take an hour or two for myself and connect with myself connect with my buddy connect with nature connect with God. You know, whatever you believe that whatever you believe in, it's out there. And this is where I this is where I find it on him or her

Catie Friend  34:50

whatever the higher the source or the higher power whatever one chooses to believe in. I know you said obviously you find yourself a better mom and and so when you have Do you Think not just your your ability to be a better mom, but do you think your sporting abilities has helped them to be sort of more rounded human beings? It's easier to see when they're a little bit older, I guess.

35:14

Yeah. Inspiring for them to see their mom. Okay, they saw they, they participated in this Hawaii project. From the beginning, they, they thought in the beginning, while she's really bold, she was she's going for Hawaii and I'm not sure if everyone believed me. But then they saw how determined and how disciplined and how, what it what it what it did to me and that I could, so that this is definitely an inspiring mum of I think for them to see a mom who believes in her dreams and who goes for them. And, and again, I believe also that they saw how I was available. Even though I was tired that I was available for them. I was a good, let's say helper for their homework, you know and and so on and so on. And so it's I would say it was all positive for them. It was a positive experience from from A to Z and then we even went to Hawaii together so they so they show it all and I yeah, it is inspiring. It is definitely I saw in Jason who was that back then he was what 14 years old. I saw a shift. And even though I had not said much more than Jason stop being on your phone or stop playing computer all the time. Focus on your focus focus on his call. He knew that but I didn't want to fight about it so much. And I just said okay, it will happen and he it happened without me fighting more you know without me even saying anything anymore. And now he's really definitely he's doing great, it's cool and he found he found his passion, his own passion which is basketball. And he now ran with me and a 22 trail running into a mat and I couldn't believe my eyes how how fit he is and how fast he is. Fast he of course but on a 20 k it's not too bad for a 16 year old to be able to to run that pace. So it was it was and then it's something really above all it's to share this with my son and all my children to be able to share my passion of sports with my children and and run now for the first time with one of them a trail was absolutely beautiful.

Catie Friend  37:56

It is the dream both my husband my husband, I think actually you are a female version of my husband all the things you've said so so like him the Excel spreadsheets that which race would be the easiest to qualify and what would you know so funny, but he you know he grew up very sporty, whereas I didn't but I have just seen so many benefits of raising sporty children in a sporty family and in 2017 he and I ran of multistage ultra marathon together very different ends of the pack I may add but we still shared the experience together and we both came back saying how incredible it would be when the kids are big to be able to take them off to do something like that you know to go abroad or even you know here at home We're so lucky. And you know when I saw the pictures of you doing that with your son I was just thought oh I can't wait because mine is still a little bit young. But just amazing. Amazing Amazing.

38:57

And you know that I was supposed to do that we did last year this one this year was blessed with my 20 year old and with my boyfriend with my companion and while it was cancelled but now my my really my and I had already that vision let's talk about vision again is to do the long run the long path who is with blaze with the 20 year old and Jason as a three the three of our amazing and because Jason has has the technical and the Alpine Alpine know how more than the than the knee and my other son. He's a he's doing also something amazing with his dad. He's quite he wants to climb all the 4000 metre mountain in Switzerland. So it's a 48 of them before he's 20 years old. And wow already is already climbed. 27 or two 28 of them, and he's just turning 17 in a month. And so he's got the the knowledge, you know, the mountain knowledge. And when you need, as you know, you need that for us for a race like that. And so that's my vision,

Catie Friend  40:17

I think, I think your family and my family were separated at birth, my husband is on a mission to do exactly that. And he's trying to do it before he's 60. I suspect he'll manage it in the next few years, because I think he's at about 30, something like that. That's where he is today actually climbing this record. So that's incredible. It is the most extraordinary experience. And I mean, it was amazing enough for me to do it with two incredible girlfriends. I cannot imagine what it would be like to do it with your kids. It's just must be it would be very, very special.

40:47

Yeah. That's the vision.

Catie Friend  40:49

Yeah, that's incredible. Well, then it will happen. Yeah, if that's the vision. And a so thank you so much for joining me, I have I cannot tell you how much of an absolute joy has been chatting to you today. Tell us how we can get hold of your book iron mum?

41:07

Where can we? Where can we find you? It's not available in French in the library? Are you in the French part of Switzerland in any every Pio? It's also available in on my website, I run a new emma.ch and the English and German versions are there going to be available very soon, I will put it on my website to begin with rN mn.ch. And then it should be also available on them as a numeric so digital, that I will also mention on my website or under social media as soon as it's ready.

Catie Friend  41:54

Fabulous. And we can follow you on Instagram on iron mum.ch. Is that right?

41:59

That's correct. And also Facebook. I run them

Catie Friend  42:02

indeed Facebook and Instagram. And last question What is next? What's the apart from the pet toy, which is a couple of years away? What's the next

42:12

year I really have no plans now for next year. It's mostly now inspiring other people having the feedback from my readers and and who knows being able to accompany some of them in their own journey on their journey to well being sports to sports, in doing sports, triathlon, whatever, that's my

Catie Friend  42:38

because you are you're no coaching as well which

42:41

I am exactly I am and it's it's really beautiful. Now that's a new dimension that, you know, people readers come to me and say why I would love to you to help me. For example, the last one was the recent one was a woman who, who said, I would like you to come with me in the lake. And I would like you to swim with me because I'm afraid of swimming in the lake. And because I had this I was struggling myself. And I talked about it in the book and she she saw it in me that the potential of that I could really help her overcome her fears and of of the lake of not seeing what you what is under your feet. And yeah.

Catie Friend  43:29

Amazing. Well, Kane, thank you again, so much for your time. I'm so grateful. It has been an absolute pleasure. I loved love to the book. Again, I'll say it's iron mom, and you can find it on iron mom.ch and wish you all the best with your endeavours, I am very sure that our paths will cross again in the near future.

43:50

Merci beaucoup Katie, thank you so much for your interview and your time and I look forward to any anything. Show up. Thank you so much. Okay, take care. Thank you. Bye Bye.”